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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8268555" data-attributes="member: 93670">the level of death risk that is acceptable will depend heavily on  the style of game.  Generally a lot of certain death is only appreciated in games where the focus is largely on avoiding risk.. things like dcc and in pc terms roguelike fames.Video games make a good array of examples though. In a lot of older games death was easy to find if you didn't spend a lot of time "grinding levels", many old crpgs fit here because the grinding was the game with the story just a fun distraction. Games like galaga and various beat em ups were easy to die and return.  The NES battletoads and ghouls n hots  roke that easy return chain making the lethality such a focus that it detracted from the simple game.  Games like sonic megaman &the early Mario brothers could also have very high difficulties but there was almost always a lot of ways you could tackle it or the difficulty was  the game focusing on precision platforming that sometimes  reached very high levels of precision that made the player feel like they almost had it even when failing. Dcc and some of the osram type games are in the highly lethal with a focus on avoiding the risk as the fun part and often make the death fun by making it an excuse to do s shot eat a candy or just pull out your neclxt pregen. 5e is k in no of like ghouls n ghosts and battletiads in the simplistic gameplay (stripped tactical elements & such) but with the easy recovery of galaga and such and near "ame genie" powered levels of semi-immortal characters."More lethal" doesn't mean that the next step is deep into meatgrinder territory, but  5e takes d&d's historically bar to recovery from attrition/death and drops it to a triviality in addition to making the risk to an extreme degree where players regularly fail at deliberately making an effort to die on purpose (ie to bring in a new character). Its hard to argue that "people fail at trying to die on purpose and can still trivially return from it" is anything but the opposite of a meatgrinder.   With the system fighting gm attempts at changing that without offering the gm sh options beyond save or die and effectively saying "do you feel lucky punk" dirty harry style while attacking downed pcs things get worse</blockquote>

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