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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Clint_L" data-source="post: 9481653" data-attributes="member: 7035894">As many have pointed out, "balance" depends on context. To the OP, who is very focused on optimization and high level play, "balance" means something very different than it does when I am running a campaign for beginners, starting at level 1 and probably ending by level 5. We know that, in general, most of D&D is played at tiers 1-2 (levels 1-10). 96% of games, if WotC is to be believed.I also think "balanced" means something different to the mostly hardcore crowd who frequent forums like this, as opposed to the vast majority of players.For me, I think the game is balanced if every player can feel like their character has about as good a chance as the others to make a meaningful impact on the story, but this can be hard to evaluate. For example, if you play a barbarian you will likely have a significant impact on most battles - your contribution will score high for reliability. But if you play a sorcerer, you will likely have almost no impact on some battles but a huge one on others, so your contribution will score low for reliability. It's hard to assess whether that is "balanced;" I think it largely comes down to subjective experience, and people are typically bad at assessing subjective experience.So all that said, I think 5e has always done a pretty good job of maintaining balance while also allowing classes to feel distinct. This is not easy, and it took them around forty years to get there! The jury is still out on the 2024 rules; my sense from my own games is that 5e remains pretty balanced, but time will tell.Edit: So do players really want balance? Yes, in the sense that they want to feel like their contribution is as valuable to the story as anyone else's. And that is a fair expectation!I also don't think that most of the OP's examples were really about balance, but others have covered that.</blockquote>

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