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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IceBear" data-source="post: 324025" data-attributes="member: 1118">It depends.  Some people would say no reflex save when you are completely unaware and helpless (I consider being asleep helpless) while others would.  Me, I personally would give them a chance to hear the spell and wake up.  If they succeed they get a save, if they don't (and don't have some interesting magical items) then no save.  The reason I go this route is because it states that if you were helpless or unable to move then you are denied a Reflex save (look up the info on Evasion).As for being a rat bastard DM - don't they have people on watch?  You might get away with it once or twice, but after that the PCs should be prepared.I would give fortitude and will saves when asleep, though maybe with penalties.IceBear</blockquote>