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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IceBear" data-source="post: 324313" data-attributes="member: 1118">But it says As with a Reflex save for any creature... which I take to mean that the rules for when you can evade is the same as Reflex Saves - plus I think it was clarified by the Sage that if you're helpless you can't dodge out of the way (ie make a Reflex save)Anyway, this thread is now starting to turn like the other one.  Sufficent to say, everyone has pet peeves with the rules - mine is the ability of someone who is helpless and can't move dodging out of the way (it's not resisting the damage - that's a Fort save), but dodging.  I know that DMs always want to give their PCs a chance - I'm all for that - but there comes a point where it just doesn't make sense.I will concede to giving sleeping PCs a Reflex save with Dex 0 as that's just a good a model as anything else to reflex the PCs instinctively knowing they're in danger and then taking action to get out of the way.  But if they can't take that action, then no save.IceBear</blockquote>