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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IceBear" data-source="post: 325044" data-attributes="member: 1118">Hmmmm - the designers DID intend for you to lose your Reflex saving throw if you're helpless.   This is another of those areas - like a natural 1/20 is an auto fail/success on saves - they intended for it to work that way but never wrote it down.  The part on Evasion where they say "As with reflex saves..." is the closest thing to it being in paper, but I did receive an email from the Sage (no I don't have it anymore) clarifying that if you're helpless you can't dodge, and if you can't dodge then you don't get to make a Reflex save.Yes, dumb luck and circumstance does play a part in a saving throw - that's why if you're in a 10ft room and a fireball goes off right on top of you still get the save as you can try SOMETHING, and that something might just be enough.  If however, you aren't wearing your asbestos underwear and can't move (pazalyzed) then no, I don't allow saves if the fireball goes off on you.  What would you want for me to do - the paralyzed guy makes his save and his friend next to him doesn't so I say the Int22 wizard placed the fireball too high to hurt the paralyzed guy and kills the person standing next to him? Doesn't make sense.  I know that I shouldn't try to make sense of the rules (and for the most part I don't - dragons only move 5ft with a step, PCs can fall 200ft and walk away, etc) but I can't accept someone who can't move dodging to safety.  We all have our pet peeves with the rules, and this one's mine, so I'm sorry if I offended your DM sensibilites.I'm sorry if you think I've lost my mind, but I assure you I haven't.  I tend NOT to Rule 0 anything, and don't feel I have here.  I have clarified my original postion - you get a Save with Dex 0.  What I would have originally done is have each player make a Wis (DC 12) check to "sense something was wrong" and wake up.  Those that woke up would have gotten their saves.  Those that didn't, wouldn't.  If someone was on watch, then they would have gotten a Spot chance (DC would be fairly easy as I suspect seeing a bead of fire coming towards you in the dark would have been easy) and then could shout to wake up the others as well, But, since I am in the camp of always trying to give the PC a chance (though I don't think I wasn't) then as they are just naturally asleep I agree with giving them a Save with the penalty to simulate a lucky break of waking up just in time to dodge.  But, if they were held or magically asleep, I'm sorry but there is nothing they could do to dodge, so no save. I can't remember the last time someone in my group has been denied a saving throw because I always try to give them a chance.  If, however, the evil priest should hold a character and then the evil mage drops a fireball on him then, sorry, no save.  I would actually think my player would thank me that that was all I did - I should have had someone walk over an CdG him.  And, just so you don't think I've lost my mind and I am an evil DM, I clarified this to my players and their response was "Of course we wouldn't get a save...why would we?" So, my group was ok with it so what does it matter if you're not.IceBear</blockquote>

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