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ShortQuests -- Pocket Sized Adventures! An all-new collection of digest-sized D&D adventures designed for 1-2 game sessions.

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawken" data-source="post: 1788444" data-attributes="member: 23619">Ok. I wrote too quickly about the 'or otherwise' part.However, in your argument, Enlarging an unconscious target is different than slapping a cure on them and not because one spell is harmless and the other isn't. A Cure is a Will save, so, they would automatically be subject to it while unconscious. An Enlarge spell is a Fort save, so they would get a save while unconscious whether they wanted one or not I would imagine. You made your point on my mistake. I have no problems with unconscious targets getting a Fort save when allowed. And I agree fully that an unconscious person shouldn't get a Will save.  How so, except in the case of Fortitude saves? An unconscious target would forego a Will save and be unable to make a Reflex save, but a Fort save, if allowed by spell or effect, should always be made unless the target consciously wishes to forego the save. My only disagreement was with Egres stating that Reflex saves could be made while immobile. If that's his opinion and he wants to throw common sense (and a law or two of physics) out the window for his games, more power to him! But a helpless (immobile) target cannot avoid a CDG, why should they be allowed to make a Reflex save to avoid an incoming spell or other effect? Just because someone forgot to include, "Helpless or immobile targets cannot make Reflex saving throws," in the PHB or DMG? That's no different than letting a character make a Reflex save when in a 10'X10'X10' empty room with no immediate exits or any kind of cover and a fireball detonates. Yeah, the spell description says he gets a reflex save, but that is because the writer of that spell is supposing that the targets are able to somehow get out of the area of effect, find cover or something.</blockquote>

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