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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 2196730" data-attributes="member: 4937">Because this isn't the first time that someone has said something that seemed to imply that there was some other possibility, I just want to point out that if both parties are observing each other that under the rules no surprise is possible no matter how suddenly either side acts.&nbsp;&nbsp; So again, the above reads &quot;No surprise is ever involved if both parties are observing each other.&quot;Morever, if the observation has been going on more than one round, no side can catch the other one flat footed either - even if neither side has taken an attack action - simply because it can be assumed that both sides have at least readied an action.&nbsp;&nbsp; Normally, you need feats like Flick of the Wrist to draw a weapon and catch the opponent flat footed, and at the very least if the PC's are planning by some deception to lure thier opponents into dropping thier gaurd the NPC's should recieve a Sense Motive check opposed by the Bluff check of every PC planning hostile action in order to aware that the PC's are being cunning.&nbsp; And even then no surprise round is possible and the PC's must still win initiative in order to catch anyone flat footed.&nbsp; No one - NPC or PC - is so blindingly fast that they get a surprise round on any opponent that is aware of them.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm sure that at least 99% of the people on this thread understand that, but just in case anyone doesn't, I'm repeating it here in case that misunderstanding is part of the problem.I also wonder whether part of the problem is that DM's for the sake of convience end up using something like the cRPG convention that what goes on in one room has absolutely no bearing on what goes on in neighboring rooms.&nbsp;&nbsp; No party with fighters and clerics clunking around in plate mail should ever be eligible for a surprise on anyone, because if you forced them tediously make 'move silently' checks for the 20 rounds previously, you can be pretty darn sure that everyone within at least 100' had a pretty darn good ideal that they were coming and roughly where they where even if 'contact' hasn't yet been made.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 2196730, member: 4937"] Because this isn't the first time that someone has said something that seemed to imply that there was some other possibility, I just want to point out that if both parties are observing each other that under the rules [b]no surprise is possible[/b] no matter how suddenly either side acts. So again, the above reads "No surprise [b]is ever[/b] involved if both parties are observing each other." Morever, if the observation has been going on more than one round, no side can catch the other one flat footed either - even if neither side has taken an attack action - simply because it can be assumed that both sides have at least readied an action. Normally, you need feats like Flick of the Wrist to draw a weapon and catch the opponent flat footed, and at the very least if the PC's are planning by some deception to lure thier opponents into dropping thier gaurd the NPC's should recieve a Sense Motive check opposed by the Bluff check of every PC planning hostile action in order to aware that the PC's are being cunning. And even then [b]no surprise round is possible[/b] and the PC's must still win initiative in order to catch anyone flat footed. No one - NPC or PC - is so blindingly fast that they get a surprise round on any opponent that is aware of them. I'm sure that at least 99% of the people on this thread understand that, but just in case anyone doesn't, I'm repeating it here in case that misunderstanding is part of the problem. I also wonder whether part of the problem is that DM's for the sake of convience end up using something like the cRPG convention that what goes on in one room has absolutely no bearing on what goes on in neighboring rooms. No party with fighters and clerics clunking around in plate mail should ever be eligible for a surprise on anyone, because if you forced them tediously make 'move silently' checks for the 20 rounds previously, you can be pretty darn sure that everyone within at least 100' had a pretty darn good ideal that they were coming and roughly where they where even if 'contact' hasn't yet been made. [/QUOTE]

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