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Message: <blockquote data-quote="azmodean" data-source="post: 2199181" data-attributes="member: 26590">I believe this is the applicable quote from the rules.  The term "battle" is somewhat lacking in this particular situation.  When is the start of the "battle"?  When the "combatants" first see each other?  When the first blow is struck?  When the first action is declared?I think the most resonable definition in this case would be, "situation where the order of actions is important".  This gives us "At the start of a situation where the order of actions is important, each combatant makes an initiative check."  With the existing additional rules concerning suprise, etc.I think the scenarios used in this thread conform to the definition I am advocating here, therefore as soon as the situation becomes apparent to the DM, initiative is called for and characters (wether PCs or NPCs) act in their initiative order.So in the "hobo" example, the PCs enter initiative order as soon as they decide to confront the hobo and once he joins the initiative order (by becoming aware of the PCs, aka someone wakes him up) they maintain the upper hand due to their readied actions.In the "ambush the thieves" example, the PCs enter initiative order as they enter detection range of the thieves (as per the "stealth and detection" notes in the wilderness section of the DMG or SRD) and proceed from there, with the thieves getting a listen check once a round to hear the approaching adventurers.  (at an arbitrarily chosen position in the initiative order, I would have the check after the lowest initiative PC in each round)  If the adventurers manage to avoid early detection, they are free to set themselves up in a tactically superior situation and ready actions in case the thieves decide not to talk.  Once in position, if they decide to attempt to bargain instead of slaughtering the thieves, they certainly lose the suprise round, but they maintain first action in the initiative order at least due to their previously readied actions.  Meanwhile they are free to talk with their targets until someone decides to break the stalemate.</blockquote>

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