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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 2200843" data-attributes="member: 3146">Your example has worse flaws: namely, it can't happen in D&D without feats that make Joe Hobo more than Joe Hobo. To break down your example, let's go phrase by phrase:"Initiative is rolled." Right. Someone did something stupid."Joe Hobo rolls a 19 and gets a 17." It can happen. It won't happen often, but it can happen."Everyone else rolls 12 or less for 16 or less." Obviously none of the PCs are extremely fast either for none of them have Improved Initiative or a 20+ dex, either of which would enable them to beat Joe Hobo on a roll of a 12. (Assuming at least a +1 dex bonus for Mr. Imp Init.)"Although they were watching closely, Joe Hobo moves "blindly fast" Flavor Text"gets up," One move action"pulls a weapon," Another move action."moves 5 feet closer" No problem."and kills one of the PCs." At least a standard action. Joe Hobo's actions now total two move actions and one standard action which is one more action than he would be allowed under normal rules. Apparently Joe Hobo is operating under the influence of 3.0 haste. The PCs should look inside his brown bag and see if it has any of that ancient potion substance that will let their spellcasters cast two non-quickened spells per round. There are a few other ways that it could be done. Joe Hobo could have Quickdraw. But then, if Joe Hobo has quickdraw, you would expect him to be able to get the drop on people and knife them when they don't expect it. That's what the feat is for. Joe Hobo could also have Improved Unarmed Strike and attack with his fists. But if the PCs thought he was Joe Hobo and he turned out to be Joe Prizefighter, then the sequence doesn't look so ridiculous after all.And, as for killing one of the PCs... if we assume Joe Hobo is a first level commoner (and if he isn't, then the situation requires no explanation), there's no way he can kill a PC in that surprise action given his 6 strength and dex. Even giving Joe Hobo quickdraw and a shortsword and assuming a crit he only does 2d6-4 damage for a max of 8 points. A first level wizard with a 3 con has 1 hit point and would require 11 points to actually kill. But, good luck hitting with a -2 attack bonus.So, yes, if Joe Hobo is really Joe Quickdraw or Joe Prizefighter, and wins initiative, he can sucker punch the wizard and drop him with a lucky crit. However, that's no longer Joe Hobo.The rule works just fine, however, if you leave Joe Hobo out of the picture (or don't give him a round of 3.0 haste).Does that mean that if something dumb can't happen in the example (as this can't) then it can't happen in the game).</blockquote>

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