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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 2204438" data-attributes="member: 3146">Sure, but I acknowledged the possibility that he might be Joe Prizefighter or Joe Quickdraw. The point is that, as soon as the hobo ceases to be pathetic, it is no longer ridiculous that he could get the drop on the PCs. The hobo was initially a counterexample. The original example was Neo. It does not strain believability at all that Neo might get the drop on a SWAT team in the Matrix even if they wake him up with guns pointed at him while he's sleeping. In fact, we expect Neo to be able to take them all out before they can shoot him. After all, Trinity pretty much did that in the opening sequence of the first movie and Neo is quicker than Trinity.You acknowledged this when you made the counterexample. I believe your post was "sure, but Neo has 26 strength and dex." The logic of the counterexample was that "Joe Hobo" has to be someone who you not only do not expect to be able to get the drop on the PCs and take one out before they act, but also has to be someone who shouldn't be able to do so.As soon as you give "Joe Hobo" an assassin level, Improved Initiative, Quickdraw, or Improved Unarmed Strike, he is no longer someone who shouldn't be able to get the drop on the PCs. He's someone who could conceivably get the drop on the PCs (but who is unlikely to do so). And the more you stack the deck in his favor (quickdraw and a poisoned dagger, for instance), the more "Joe Hobo" looks like Neo. And we expect Neo to be able to do that reliably.The point only survives if the action resolution order is actually nonsensical. It ceases to be non-sensical as soon as you give the Joe Hobo the feats and weapons that actually make it possible.That doesn't seem nonsensical either. Lucky, perhaps. Maybe unlikely. But not nonsensical. Everyday in real life, cops die when suspects turn on them. They were basically ready for it (as is evidenced by the fact that, most of the time, the cop wins). But basically ready isn't the same thing as being actually ready and the split second between when a person realizes their enemy is acting (he's not just scratching his rear, he's going for a gun; I should shoot and not yell "keep your hands where I can see them") and when they pull the trigger or release the string is often too long. That a powerful wizard could cast a spell and kill the PCs from the ground? That's even more believable than the real life examples. If it's the right spell, he doesn't need to reach for anything.The charging sixty feet stretches credulity a little bit, but I've seen enough fights to think that flatfooted is actually a fairly good mechanic. When I taught martial arts and did kickboxing, there was always that opening moment in the fight, right after the referee said "fight!" that I (or the other guy) could sieze the initiative and my opponent might not be prepared. We were both aware of each other. We were both waiting for something to happen. But until we were actually fighting for a few seconds, we weren't at our best. It was even more apparent in point-fighting. Since there would be a break there as soon as someone scored a point, you would see a lot more of that sezing the initiative, moving 10 feet and landing a punch, kick, or chop before the other guy had gotten in motion.</blockquote>

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