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Do the Monster Building Guidelines Work?
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<blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 9154662" data-attributes="member: 83242"><p>This thread was spawned by a conversation I was having with [USER=87792]@Neonchameleon[/USER] about the monster building guidelines in the Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG). I like the monster building guidelines in the DMG. However, the frustrate some people and others think they are broken or simply don't work. They point to discrepancies between the CR in the Monster Manual (MM) and the DMG as "proof" that they are broken. Is that true? If it is true, is that proof of an error in the guidelines or an error in the execution?</p><p></p><p>First, I believe for the most part the guidelines work. They can't cover all cases and provide all the features that affect CR, but they do, IMO, a good job. We do have to accept in somethings you have to make a judgement based on little to no guidance. They are however a bit obtuse, so I understand they create a lot of confusion. I think that is why many say they don't work, they don't understand all the in and outs of the guidelines. So I maintain that there are not as many discrepancies between the DMG and the MM as people think.</p><p></p><p>Second, I believe many discrepancies between the DMG and the MM are caused by errors in the MM and not the DMG.</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 22px">Are Monsters better now?!</span></p><p>I will review the 2nd point first. Basically, over the course of 5e WotC has tweaked their monsters. What is interesting is that as they have done so, they have consistently become more in line with the DMG, not less so. This leads me to believe the DMG is fairly good at what it is supposed to do and early differences were an error in execution of the guidelines.</p><p></p><p>I quick check of this is to look at dragons. In the MM, the ancient green dragon has a CR of 22. Similarly, in Fizban's Treasury of Dragons (FToD) the ancient sapphire dragon has a CR of 22. The green dragon has a higher AC, more HP, and does significantly more damage than the sapphire dragon. So how can they have the same CR? Well, the MM dragon's CR is wrong.</p><p></p><p>When I check the CR of the green dragon with DMG rules, I get a CR of 24 not 22! However, when I check the sapphire dragon with DMG rules I get a CR of 22, the same as listed in FToD. The design of the monster has shifted to match the DMG rules more closely as WotC has gotten better at using their own guidelines.</p><p></p><p>[spoiler=Dragon Reference Statblocks]</p><p>[ATTACH=full]302137[/ATTACH]</p><p>[ATTACH=full]302138[/ATTACH]</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 22px">The Proof is in the Black Pudding</span></p><p>Now back to the first question: how accurate are the CRs in the MM? I have heard many tails about how awful the CRs are in the MM when compared to the DMG. However, I generally find the pretty accurate. But I have not done an exhaustive check. I would like to do so now. However, I don't really have the time so this will be a slow process. I will tackle this task in order as I make my way through the MM. To start here are my findings, with comments, for the As:</p><p>[spoiler='Monster CR check: "A"']</p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><th>Monster Name</th><th>MM CR</th><th>DMG CR</th><th>Delta</th><th>Notes</th></tr><tr><td>Aarakocra</td><td>0.25</td><td>0.25</td><td>0</td><td>DMG CR was .1875, so could be 1/8 or 1/4 depending how you want to round.</td></tr><tr><td>Aboleth</td><td>10</td><td>10</td><td>0</td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Angel: Deva</td><td>10</td><td>9</td><td>1</td><td>Off. low (CR 8)</td></tr><tr><td>Angel: Planetar</td><td>16</td><td>15</td><td>1</td><td>Off. and Def. low (CR 15); effective use of blade barrier could increase CR</td></tr><tr><td>Angel: Solar</td><td>21</td><td>21</td><td>0</td><td>Assumes damage immunities & 2 targets for searing burst (I think that is a stretch)</td></tr><tr><td>Animated Armor</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Flying Sword</td><td>0.25</td><td>0.5</td><td>-0.25</td><td>DMG CR was .375, so could be 1/4 or 1/2 depending how you want to round.</td></tr><tr><td>Rug of Smothering</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>assumes "damage transfer" trait adds +1 to CR</td></tr><tr><td>Ankheg</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Azer</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>DMG CR as 1.5, so couldl be 1 or 2 depending on how you want to round</td></tr></table><p>[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p>I will add more monsters as I get them done. But this will be all for a while. I am much to busy to be doing this right now!</p><p></p><p>PS - I know the DMG guidelines do not match WotC internal spreadsheet 100%, that does not mean they are broken.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="dave2008, post: 9154662, member: 83242"] This thread was spawned by a conversation I was having with [USER=87792]@Neonchameleon[/USER] about the monster building guidelines in the Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG). I like the monster building guidelines in the DMG. However, the frustrate some people and others think they are broken or simply don't work. They point to discrepancies between the CR in the Monster Manual (MM) and the DMG as "proof" that they are broken. Is that true? If it is true, is that proof of an error in the guidelines or an error in the execution? First, I believe for the most part the guidelines work. They can't cover all cases and provide all the features that affect CR, but they do, IMO, a good job. We do have to accept in somethings you have to make a judgement based on little to no guidance. They are however a bit obtuse, so I understand they create a lot of confusion. I think that is why many say they don't work, they don't understand all the in and outs of the guidelines. So I maintain that there are not as many discrepancies between the DMG and the MM as people think. Second, I believe many discrepancies between the DMG and the MM are caused by errors in the MM and not the DMG. [SIZE=6]Are Monsters better now?![/SIZE] I will review the 2nd point first. Basically, over the course of 5e WotC has tweaked their monsters. What is interesting is that as they have done so, they have consistently become more in line with the DMG, not less so. This leads me to believe the DMG is fairly good at what it is supposed to do and early differences were an error in execution of the guidelines. I quick check of this is to look at dragons. In the MM, the ancient green dragon has a CR of 22. Similarly, in Fizban's Treasury of Dragons (FToD) the ancient sapphire dragon has a CR of 22. The green dragon has a higher AC, more HP, and does significantly more damage than the sapphire dragon. So how can they have the same CR? Well, the MM dragon's CR is wrong. When I check the CR of the green dragon with DMG rules, I get a CR of 24 not 22! However, when I check the sapphire dragon with DMG rules I get a CR of 22, the same as listed in FToD. The design of the monster has shifted to match the DMG rules more closely as WotC has gotten better at using their own guidelines. [spoiler=Dragon Reference Statblocks] [ATTACH type="full" alt="1696647718045.png"]302137[/ATTACH] [ATTACH type="full" alt="1696647726104.png"]302138[/ATTACH] [/spoiler] [SIZE=6]The Proof is in the Black Pudding[/SIZE] Now back to the first question: how accurate are the CRs in the MM? I have heard many tails about how awful the CRs are in the MM when compared to the DMG. However, I generally find the pretty accurate. But I have not done an exhaustive check. I would like to do so now. However, I don't really have the time so this will be a slow process. I will tackle this task in order as I make my way through the MM. To start here are my findings, with comments, for the As: [spoiler='Monster CR check: "A"'] [TABLE] [TR] [TH]Monster Name[/TH] [TH]MM CR[/TH] [TH]DMG CR[/TH] [TH]Delta[/TH] [TH]Notes[/TH] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Aarakocra[/TD] [TD]0.25[/TD] [TD]0.25[/TD] [TD]0[/TD] [TD]DMG CR was .1875, so could be 1/8 or 1/4 depending how you want to round.[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Aboleth[/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]0[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Angel: Deva[/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]9[/TD] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]Off. low (CR 8)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Angel: Planetar[/TD] [TD]16[/TD] [TD]15[/TD] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]Off. and Def. low (CR 15); effective use of blade barrier could increase CR[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Angel: Solar[/TD] [TD]21[/TD] [TD]21[/TD] [TD]0[/TD] [TD]Assumes damage immunities & 2 targets for searing burst (I think that is a stretch)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Animated Armor[/TD] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]0[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Flying Sword[/TD] [TD]0.25[/TD] [TD]0.5[/TD] [TD]-0.25[/TD] [TD]DMG CR was .375, so could be 1/4 or 1/2 depending how you want to round.[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Rug of Smothering[/TD] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]0[/TD] [TD]assumes "damage transfer" trait adds +1 to CR[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Ankheg[/TD] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]0[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Azer[/TD] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]0[/TD] [TD]DMG CR as 1.5, so couldl be 1 or 2 depending on how you want to round[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/spoiler] I will add more monsters as I get them done. But this will be all for a while. I am much to busy to be doing this right now! PS - I know the DMG guidelines do not match WotC internal spreadsheet 100%, that does not mean they are broken. [/QUOTE]
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