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Message: <blockquote data-quote="billd91" data-source="post: 9259521" data-attributes="member: 3400">There are some serious problems with assumptions and styles going on here that aren't necessarily a problem with rules.In most cases I've encountered, rules like Knowledge skills are helpful and good ways to enable the DM to feed information to the PCs, but I've rarely encountered situations where they ARE the solution more than ideas from the players. And I don't think there are any rules implying they SHOULD be the only solutions to problems.This is one of the very few situations in this thread where I see rules being part of the actual problem. If the ACs or DRs, or the specific game's equivalent, are set so high that you need a lot of optimization to hit them - that, I agree, is a rule design problem. Those things should generally be designed for a more moderate build, with rare exceptions pushing the envelope and forcing some kind of method of cooperation between players to beat something. But plenty of RPGs DO include these kinds of things - Help actions in D&D and BRP, flanking in D&D, combining attacks in Champions, etc - for just such situations.Why would a barbarian hitting up the rumor mill in a bar give the operation away? Or, for that matter, why would the barbarian being one of the dinner guess screw things over without play getting kind of stupid (either from the GMs or player's side of table). A barbarian doesn't have to be played as a boorish lout, and the GM doesn't need to cut a barbarian's impact on a dinner party out or have any delicate negotiations fail. The barbarian could distract some of the courtiers as a fascinating or exotic social outsider and make the party face's job easier. Players and GMs should be working with each other, right, instead of maybe treating PCs stereotypically and forcing them to stay in their lanes.I fail to see how things always need to be maxed out. Are you setting the difficulties too high? Not allowing players to help each other? It may be that the math of the situation encourages maxing things out, but in my experience relatively few games make it impossible to succeed without maxing things out.Yeah, well, if you don't allow certain stars of the scene to happen every once in a while, why bother having multiple players and multiple characters at all? I can see where you don't want extended sessions with just a single player while nobody else is involved, but 5-10 minutes here or there shouldn't really be a problem. If you're not directly involved, be respectful. The attitude about checking out or leaving and getting a beer is a problematic one because it underscores you're not a fan of the OTHER players when they get a chance to be in the spotlight without YOU. If extended solos are coming up, then it's a problem with the GM and pacing more than rules.</blockquote>

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