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Message: <blockquote data-quote="garrowolf" data-source="post: 5495528" data-attributes="member: 31900">Okay M&M isn't a normal level system. It is a bit weird how it deals with it but I like it. I think that it does Supers better then any other game system I've seen. I was thinking of levels as power levels from that game. I do like that ability to get a general idea of power level from the "level" of a character. I think that it is a good framework to reflect general living experience.  I didn't think I was talking specifically about D&D but about modern class based systems. It does have a large market share but I never really liked it for other reasons. I was thinking more about D20 Modern, Spycraft, D20 Call of Cthulhu, T20 Traveler, Pathfinder, D20 Stargate SG1, Star Wars D20, etc. It wasn't an attempt to bash D&D, I can do that all day long but I just don't care. About the issue of balance I don't see how having classes improves play balance except to limit the character's choices. If the core system is balanced then any characters you create would make sense. However that doesn't mean that they will all be matches for each other in a fight. They just need to be useful in their own way. Having a balanced party is up to the players and the GM to at least some degree. You can create imbalanced parties WITH Classes. You can create a party that is good in dungeons and not in cities or on the ocean. That is based on the GM either telling the players what kind of PCs he wants for his game or just simply being cruel (or challenging them if they like that sort of thing). If you put players into settings that they don't have the tools to deal with the Classes are not going to save you. IN fact I would say that it would hurt you if you did anything beyond the standard hack and slash game. Class based systems that deal with more modern settings end up having too many classes or classes that are vague in order to deal with the variety of tasks and challenges possible. I didn't say that I hate class based systems but after a while of thinking about it I don't remember enjoying most class based games, usually because of the classes. If I wanted to create a character that was a little different from the standard classes but would have made perfect sense in the setting I would either have to create a new class or warp an existing one. I could come up with a great character in most any other system that didn't require classes. That doesn't mean it was the most powerful character either. I prefer to make more role play type of characters that can hold their own in their niche. @ScurvyPlatypus I don't really understand how you don't understand the difference between a class and an archetype. A Class is like going down a hallway. An Archetype is an example of someone that went down a hallway. Classed and Point Based Systems use Archetypes all the time. All it shows is an example of a created character and what a character sheet might look like filled out. IF you have Archetypes of a bunch of NPCs such as police, military, bankers, and bums then you can help the players and the GM understand the values for the characters better. It's just an example. If you have that example of a police officer then a player can look that the character creation process with an eye to at least have most of the things that the police archetype did but he will usually have more resources to work with. If I want to create a character who was a police officer and that game doesn't have a police officer class then what? I'm not sure how else to break down the concepts of character creation. It's not a minigame (though that is a funny idea that could be used in a game). Anytime someone is looking at various character classes they are weighting the set resources of this class or that class. What I am saying is make those resources available to the players creating a character in limited amounts and maybe they will come up with a better and more interesting character then the list of classes you have let them use. Yes I will agree that the complexity goes up when you go from a limited system to a more universal system. However I don't believe that it goes up in the way you are saying. For instance if I have ten character classes and a new system I could just grab a character that is close to whatever I normally play OR I could look at each one and decide what kind of character I want in this system and setting. In order to do that I will have to figure out a lot of subsystems and what this value means and that value means. So I am having to learn the system to some degree either way. However if I just take the basic system and learn how characters work I can create that same character and be more confident about my choices. Now I will admit that a new player who is just pointing at a list of character types with no real understanding about gaming would have a faster time with a class (He would have an even faster time with an Archetype). But beyond that first time creating a character I can't see any advantage.</blockquote>

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