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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 5948812" data-attributes="member: 996">If balance were the true goal, the core as presented in the playtest wouldn't look the way it does.  You're mistaking lip-service to 4e for actually commiting to or delivering a product of quality comparable to 4e's.  What's actually been delivered so far is very AD&D.  And, while that might be an adequate foundation to bolt-on options to make it 3e-like, it makes achieving anything like 4e improbable.  Yes, "h4ters" have been hammering this talking point since day one.  That 'seeming' is the result of using consistent terminology across all powers, rather than using one set of rules for conventional combat, and a lot of verbose prose to describe magic.  What "math?"Kobolds were 1/2 HD monsters.  2hps on right on the money for an old-school kobold.  Consistent with 5e aiming at the AD&D crowd.  (Not saying that's "OK" from a 3e fan perspective, just consistent with going for the AD&Ders, and not with aiming to please 4e fans)There are also 10 or 11 hp kobolds in the playtest. FWIW. Actually, the slayer ability killing them on a miss is distinctly un-miniony.  Minions aren't damaged by missed attacks.  They're just low-hp monsters, not minions.  Using very low-hp monsters speeds up combat as much as using minions, that's how the playtest achieved it's 'fast play' - by having some distinctly underpowered foes.Even the auto-hitting magic missile isn't so much 4e as classic D&D, the Essentials 'Red Box' brought back the auto-hitting magic missile as part  of it's attempts to be more appealing to fans of the '83 "Red Box" basic set.My point was the playtest was strongly reminiscent of AD&D, not 3e or 4e.  You expressed fears it'd be 4e-like.  It's not, it's AD&D-like.  While my original topic questioned the 'something for everything' idea, I feel we've drifted from that.  So, in my reply to you, I was making no argument about what the game should incorporate, just what it has so far, and could conceivably do by adding to the foundation that's been laid.  Your fears that 5e will resemble 4e are baseless.  You're letting yourself get worked up by a vague few pie-in-the-sky promises that have little chance of being fulfilled, even if there were an intent to do so.First you say you don't object to having something for everyone, then you make it clear that you have deal-breakers that you won't accept in the game.  Which is it?Oh, nothing at all.  But the playtest makes me think it'll easily succeed at the classic D&D feel, and nothing about it suggest that some very 3e-like options can't be added to it as the modules come out.  Fighters that are customizeable with a bonus theme (that you can trade in for bonus feats).  Spontaneous casters.  PRCs.  NPC classes.  Etc.No telling how multi-classing might work, and skill ranks are probably dead, in favor of 5e's Storyteller-like stat+skill system, though.  I'm afraid you're jumping at shadows.  There isn't a hint of 4e in the playtest and no conceivable path from the playtest to anything remotely 4e.  4e is dead.  WotC has thrown it under the bus.  4e fans have been making enough noise that they're getting some lip-service, but nothing of substance.Ultimately, WotC understands that lapsed AD&D fans are the most numerous potential customers for 5e, but already have retro-clones, that 3.x fans already have Pathfinder, and that 4e fans will have no alternative to 5e short of walking away from D&D entirely (even 'continuing to play 4e' may not be much of an option once the on-line tools are killed, since a lot of faithful 4e fans went with DDI over dead-tree products).  They also know that longtime D&Ders who adopted 4e are 'adoptors' by nature - a fair proportion of them will play anything with the D&D logo.  They realize that they don't need to accomodate them much to sell to 4e fans, that they will have to really bring the old-school feel to tempt back nostalgic lapsed fans, and that they must deliver exactly what 3.x fans want or they'll just keep playing Pathfinder.  Given those market realities, can you really think 5e will resemble 4e in the slightest?</blockquote>

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