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<blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 6135786" data-attributes="member: 27160">I didn't say &quot;spun off&quot; - I was meaning they don't have to be &quot;off being a separate plane&quot;.As to &quot;delegitimising the concept&quot;, I don't agree with you but I think that the point is actually irrelevant. My thrust here is that they work either as &quot;planes&quot; with metaphysical edges (or whatever), or as parts of the over-plane of the Astral Sea/Elemental Chaos.Oh, sure it does! It has, in my view, some hinky bits ('infinite' planes with edges) but the &quot;layout&quot; of planes is very much in the eye of the beholder! If you can jump from Bytopia to Elysium and there are portals from both to Sigil, do you conclude that they are &quot;planes&quot; that are &quot;next to one another&quot; or do you conclude that they are &quot;both in the Astral Sea and next to each other&quot;?? As with so many other theories, you observe what you observe and then make up an explanation that fits with your pre-existing belief. Is the Guv'nor who believes in the &quot;Great Wheel&quot; right or the Xaositect who says &quot;they're all just floating about in the Elemental Chaos, man&quot;? Why do we even need to know, for sure?**: Just for the avoidance of doubt - I don't think we do. In fact, I think we get a better game if we don't.Um, yeah - that's why I said something like &quot;their equivalent of light speed&quot;. Basically, the thing that messes with what folk think of as &quot;common sense&quot; vis-a-vis travel speed - whatever that might be in the locality in question.It's the thing that means:Traveller: &quot;So, if we accelerate to twice the speed we get there twice as fast, right?&quot;Expert on local &quot;science&quot;: &quot;Um, no. It doesn't actually work like that&quot;.Traveller: &quot;Huh?&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Balesir, post: 6135786, member: 27160"] I didn't say "spun off" - I was meaning they don't have to be "off being a separate plane". As to "delegitimising the concept", I don't agree with you but I think that the point is actually irrelevant. My thrust here is that they work either as "planes" with metaphysical edges (or whatever), or as parts of the over-plane of the Astral Sea/Elemental Chaos. Oh, sure it does! It has, in my view, some hinky bits ('infinite' planes with edges) but the "layout" of planes is very much in the eye of the beholder! If you can jump from Bytopia to Elysium and there are portals from both to Sigil, do you conclude that they are "planes" that are "next to one another" or do you conclude that they are "both in the Astral Sea and next to each other"?? As with so many other theories, you observe what you observe and then make up an explanation that fits with your pre-existing belief. Is the Guv'nor who believes in the "Great Wheel" right or the Xaositect who says "they're all just floating about in the Elemental Chaos, man"? Why do we even need to know, for sure?* *: Just for the avoidance of doubt - I don't think we do. In fact, I think we get a better game if we don't. Um, yeah - that's why I said something like "[B][I]their equivalent[/I][/B] of light speed". Basically, the thing that messes with what folk think of as "common sense" vis-a-vis travel speed - whatever that might be in the locality in question. It's the thing that means: Traveller: "So, if we accelerate to twice the speed we get there twice as fast, right?" Expert on local "science": "Um, no. It doesn't actually work like that". Traveller: "Huh?" [/QUOTE]

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