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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mad Mac" data-source="post: 4769490" data-attributes="member: 27873">I don't think anyone is disputing that the 4th/3rd edition Rogue is more skilled in combat than the old Thief class. The disconnect is when people start claiming the 4th edition Rogue is not a skill monkey or has less out of combat utility, which is bizarre.  The old Thief class had no out of combat special abilities except their percentage chance to hide in shadows, move silently, pick pocket, listen, climb walls, open locks, and disarm traps. I might have missed one. They could also use magic user scrolls at very high levels. There was no skill system, so use of these skills were restricted to the Thief, with some exceptions, (Rangers, Bards, ect)  The 3rd edition Rogue had 8 skill points per level and access to almost the entire skill list. Use Magic Device was made a skill to represent their old scroll-reading powers. Assuming a starting Intelligence of 14, (or 12 with human) a 3rd edition Rogue could be maxed out in Hide, Move Silently, Use Magic Device, Search, Sleight of Hand, Disarm, Open Locks, Climb, Tumble, and Listen. This puts them on about the same level as the old edition theif in out of combat skills, although the skill system allowed them to configure their abilities more, to the point of dumping all their points into useless or suboptimal skills. This could occasionally cause conflict with other players who were expecting a trap monkey instead of a master chef and champion rope wrangler.   The only non-combat powers available to the 3rd edition Rogue were "Trap Sense" which was just a negative ability preventing other classes from dealing with certain types of traps, and a save bonus vs traps.   The 4th edition Rogue is required to take Stealth and Thievery, which covers the old skills of Hide, Move Silently, Pick Pockets, Open Locks, and Disarm traps. They can choose 4 other skills out of Acrobatics (Tumble) Athletics (jump, swim, climb) Bluff, Dungeoneering, Insight, Intimidate, Perception, and streetwise.   A 4th edition Rogue who ends up with Thievery, Stealth, Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception and Bluff effectively has roughly 14 skill points per level compared to the 3rd edition Rogue due to skill consolidation. They have more trained skills than any other 4th edition class released so far, and excellent synergy with Dex, Strength, and Charisma skills. (Strength vs Charisma depending on build) The 4th edition Rogue also has the largest number of skill based utilities then any other class, making them the best class in the game for using several skills.   To put in bluntly, there is no meaningful out of combat ability belonging to the old edition Thief or 3rd edition Rogue that cannot be peformed by the 4th edition Rogue except the ability to use scrolls. (Which can be somewhat duplicated by using Ritual Scrolls or learning ritual magic)</blockquote>

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