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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quinn" data-source="post: 842098" data-attributes="member: 10101">I voted that the class is just fine.  Yes, with the right ability scores, spells, and equipment, a cleric can go toe to toe with or best a comparable fighter.  Does this denote that the class is too powerful, though?  I don't think so.  The cleric is susceptible to a lot of attacks that the fighter is not.  The cleric doesn't gain the number of feats that a fighter receives.  The fighter doesn't have to worry about his attack rate, hit point total, and strength falling due to a dispel magic.  His abilities are always there, while a cleric must spend time to "buff" himself or be concerned that he has used up his most crucial spells right when he may need them.Does the cleric's abilities allow him to duplicate the abilities of a rogue?  Not really.  A wizard or sorcerer?  I'd argue that their spells are of a different nature.  I don't think the cleric really has a comparable spell with the firepower of fireball or lightning bolt as a 3rd level spell.  Sure, the cleric can get access to some really far out domains and use their domain spells and powers.  Within the core rules, I don't see an issue.  Outside of the core rules, I've seen abuses creep in, but that's more of an issue with the design of those particular domains.Is the cleric powerful?  Hell, yeah!  Is he so powerful that he detracts from the enjoyment of the game, or makes the DM bend over backwards to come up with challenging encounters?  No, I don't think so.BTW, regarding Monte Cook's view of using role-playing limits to offset rules advantages:  He doesn't like their arbitrary use.  However, if that is built into the campaign in a logical fashion, i.e., something goes against the tenets of a particular cleric's religion, then that is fine, and is in fact something that Monte has used in his own material.</blockquote>

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