Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Do you like the simplicity of 5E monsters?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Li Shenron" data-source="post: 6366917" data-attributes="member: 1465"><p>Fewer skills and feats are a general result of the 5e system, not of monsters design specifically. In fact it's not true that the dragon <em>doesn't have skills</em>, when in fact everybody in 5e has <em>all </em>skills! The difference is that now you don't need to print out a long list of skill bonuses because you use basic ability checks for everything you're not proficient (only your ability modifier applies). So there's no point to write Perception +2, Insight +2, Survival +2 etc. when basically they are all simply Wisdom +2 checks, and you already have this info in the 6 abilities. There is only a need to list those skills where the creature has a <em>different</em> bonus (normally, those with proficiency).</p><p></p><p>And feats aren't mandatory for monsters just as they aren't for characters. In 3e feats were mandatory also for monsters, so when describing a monster, the designers <em>had to</em> pick a number of feats depending on the HD, even if it was pointless for the monster concept. Now the designers <em>can</em> give the monsters some feats if they think it's important, but that means we'll see way fewer feats than in 3e for monsters.</p><p></p><p>These are 2 simple (and neat) reasons why a 5e monster already feels "lighter": less clutter in its description block!</p><p></p><p>That said, the dragon has lost primarily its spellcasting abilities, for which I said before that I really hope there are rules in the DMG to add class levels or simplified spellcasting to a MM monster (but IIUC dragons in the MM already have some simple spellcasting variants?).</p><p></p><p>Even tho I am a huge fan of spellcasting dragons, and I feel dragons to be very diminished without spellcasting, you can certainly see from the listed spells that only a few of them were relevant in combat:</p><p></p><p><em>Sorcerer Spells Known(6/7/7/5; save DC 13 + spell level): 0—arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand, read magic, resistance; 1st—alarm, divine favor, <u>magic missile</u>, <u>protection from good</u>, <u>shield</u>; 2nd—cat’s grace, <u>darkness</u>, <u>shatter</u>; 3rd—<u>dispel magic</u>, protection from energy.</em></p><p></p><p>I underlined those that I would have had the dragons use in combat (a couple of others are "buffs" that I would have cast beforehand, but let's not open that can of worms).</p><p></p><p>Once again, I am a huge fan of having this sort of spellcasting to some monsters, including apparently useless stuff like <em>arcane mark</em>. The problem is that most people just want to use this dragon in a combat encounter, so the non-combat stuff gets in the way when trying to use the monster's description, because you have to sort out which spells make sense to cast in this round from a long list. Maybe in the ideal case, a monster manual would have had separate sections for combat, interaction etc. but it probably would have required more space, and we know they ran out of it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Li Shenron, post: 6366917, member: 1465"] Fewer skills and feats are a general result of the 5e system, not of monsters design specifically. In fact it's not true that the dragon [I]doesn't have skills[/I], when in fact everybody in 5e has [I]all [/I]skills! The difference is that now you don't need to print out a long list of skill bonuses because you use basic ability checks for everything you're not proficient (only your ability modifier applies). So there's no point to write Perception +2, Insight +2, Survival +2 etc. when basically they are all simply Wisdom +2 checks, and you already have this info in the 6 abilities. There is only a need to list those skills where the creature has a [I]different[/I] bonus (normally, those with proficiency). And feats aren't mandatory for monsters just as they aren't for characters. In 3e feats were mandatory also for monsters, so when describing a monster, the designers [I]had to[/I] pick a number of feats depending on the HD, even if it was pointless for the monster concept. Now the designers [I]can[/I] give the monsters some feats if they think it's important, but that means we'll see way fewer feats than in 3e for monsters. These are 2 simple (and neat) reasons why a 5e monster already feels "lighter": less clutter in its description block! That said, the dragon has lost primarily its spellcasting abilities, for which I said before that I really hope there are rules in the DMG to add class levels or simplified spellcasting to a MM monster (but IIUC dragons in the MM already have some simple spellcasting variants?). Even tho I am a huge fan of spellcasting dragons, and I feel dragons to be very diminished without spellcasting, you can certainly see from the listed spells that only a few of them were relevant in combat: [I]Sorcerer Spells Known(6/7/7/5; save DC 13 + spell level): 0—arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand, read magic, resistance; 1st—alarm, divine favor, [U]magic missile[/U], [U]protection from good[/U], [U]shield[/U]; 2nd—cat’s grace, [U]darkness[/U], [U]shatter[/U]; 3rd—[U]dispel magic[/U], protection from energy.[/I] I underlined those that I would have had the dragons use in combat (a couple of others are "buffs" that I would have cast beforehand, but let's not open that can of worms). Once again, I am a huge fan of having this sort of spellcasting to some monsters, including apparently useless stuff like [I]arcane mark[/I]. The problem is that most people just want to use this dragon in a combat encounter, so the non-combat stuff gets in the way when trying to use the monster's description, because you have to sort out which spells make sense to cast in this round from a long list. Maybe in the ideal case, a monster manual would have had separate sections for combat, interaction etc. but it probably would have required more space, and we know they ran out of it. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Do you like the simplicity of 5E monsters?
Top