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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7175452" data-attributes="member: 4937">I don't know what &quot;that&quot; points to.&nbsp; Please link your pronoun to something.I don't particularly like inventing new words to describe old problems, but without getting too much into my private affairs and without knowing much about you, I can bet with some degree of certainty that I know more about what it is like to be &quot;othered&quot; than you do.&nbsp; That's of course a claim I might be wrong about, because I don't know you the individual and everyone is different.&nbsp; But please don't make assumptions about me, because if your assumption is that I don't know what it is like to be belittled, rejected, abused, and ostracized, because I'm a male, then I think you need to rethink your worldview. Who said anything about making male &quot;default&quot;?&nbsp;&nbsp; And who said anything about &quot;penalties&quot;?&nbsp; You are imposing a language here that I'm not using.&nbsp;&nbsp; In the language and practice of D&amp;D, you'll note that as a matter of actual fact, I haven't imposed anything on choosing a female character.&nbsp;&nbsp; But please back away from the tree and look at the forest.&nbsp; Do you really believe real women are penalized merely for being women?&nbsp;&nbsp; I don't mean penalized by society or social expectations, which we both presumably agree does happen and has happened consistently in many cultures, but rather are actually &quot;penalized&quot; (your concept) by the fact that they are for example, on average smaller than men.&nbsp;&nbsp; Is this a &quot;penalty&quot;, and is it a penalty if our system - like the real world - has physics that depend on mass and size to determine outcomes?&nbsp;&nbsp; Because if you think that it is literally a &quot;penalty&quot; (your concept) to be say 5'4&quot; instead of 5'10&quot;, then it would seem to me that you are saying that in the real world women are inferior.Do you also feel this way about life itself?&nbsp; You are imposing on the game system this idea that it is unwelcoming if female characters are on average smaller and less strong (since mass and strength correlate strongly) than male characters?&nbsp;&nbsp; Are you also deeply troubled by the fact that in real life they actually are?&nbsp; Do you feel real life has this quality of making you feel &quot;you are not welcome&quot;, if you don't adhere to some standard of being massive and physically strong?Do you feel this way about real life as well?&nbsp; If only male persons can be the best tennis players, soccer players, martial artists, and warriors, are you supposed to feel envious of men and uncomfortable with being feminine?&nbsp;&nbsp; Because I can't think of anything that is more hateful to women than imposing that set of beliefs on them, that they are somehow imperfect men, and because they can't be men they are somehow less good.Why?&nbsp; Or to put a emphatic point on it, why the hell why?&nbsp;&nbsp; Does an RPG really have to &quot;feel fair&quot; and by what standard of fairness?&nbsp; Is it &quot;fair&quot; that in Skyrim for example, as strictly objective fact, your character is &quot;better&quot; (by at least one standard, ability to inflict damage), if your character is female?&nbsp; Should I feel offput?&nbsp; Othered?&nbsp; Outraged?&nbsp;&nbsp; Life is not fair.&nbsp; If RPGs cannot deal with that fact as well, then they are less than worthless and we should all give up the hobby as a vanity of vanities unworthy of our time and energy.I don't accept that literature, even fantasy literature, is inherently 'escapist'.&nbsp; But I also don't understand why even if this is escapist fantasy it has to be &quot;fair&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp; What I think would be a stronger claim, and I should note that I've already agreed with this claim, that in escapist fantasy there is no necessity of conforming to human limitations.&nbsp;&nbsp; We should be happy to accept that the answer to the question is &quot;magic&quot;, and that there are in our escapist fantasies characters like Wonder Woman who are as strong as any man.&nbsp;&nbsp; What I reject is that the existence of this fantasy is necessary to be comfortable as women, which seems to be the subtext of a certain sort of argument being offered here.And again, that may be true of you, but I would be very unhappy indeed if we said that literature could only have happy endings, or even that if it did not have a happy ending that the point of the story had been to relish on human misery - which I emphatically reject.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7175452, member: 4937"] I don't know what "that" points to. Please link your pronoun to something. I don't particularly like inventing new words to describe old problems, but without getting too much into my private affairs and without knowing much about you, I can bet with some degree of certainty that I know more about what it is like to be "othered" than you do. That's of course a claim I might be wrong about, because I don't know you the individual and everyone is different. But please don't make assumptions about me, because if your assumption is that I don't know what it is like to be belittled, rejected, abused, and ostracized, because I'm a male, then I think you need to rethink your worldview. Who said anything about making male "default"? And who said anything about "penalties"? You are imposing a language here that I'm not using. In the language and practice of D&D, you'll note that as a matter of actual fact, I haven't imposed anything on choosing a female character. But please back away from the tree and look at the forest. Do you really believe real women are penalized merely for being women? I don't mean penalized by society or social expectations, which we both presumably agree does happen and has happened consistently in many cultures, but rather are actually "penalized" (your concept) by the fact that they are for example, on average smaller than men. Is this a "penalty", and is it a penalty if our system - like the real world - has physics that depend on mass and size to determine outcomes? Because if you think that it is literally a "penalty" (your concept) to be say 5'4" instead of 5'10", then it would seem to me that you are saying that in the real world women are inferior. Do you also feel this way about life itself? You are imposing on the game system this idea that it is unwelcoming if female characters are on average smaller and less strong (since mass and strength correlate strongly) than male characters? Are you also deeply troubled by the fact that in real life they actually are? Do you feel real life has this quality of making you feel "you are not welcome", if you don't adhere to some standard of being massive and physically strong? Do you feel this way about real life as well? If only male persons can be the best tennis players, soccer players, martial artists, and warriors, are you supposed to feel envious of men and uncomfortable with being feminine? Because I can't think of anything that is more hateful to women than imposing that set of beliefs on them, that they are somehow imperfect men, and because they can't be men they are somehow less good. Why? Or to put a emphatic point on it, why the hell why? Does an RPG really have to "feel fair" and by what standard of fairness? Is it "fair" that in Skyrim for example, as strictly objective fact, your character is "better" (by at least one standard, ability to inflict damage), if your character is female? Should I feel offput? Othered? Outraged? Life is not fair. If RPGs cannot deal with that fact as well, then they are less than worthless and we should all give up the hobby as a vanity of vanities unworthy of our time and energy. I don't accept that literature, even fantasy literature, is inherently 'escapist'. But I also don't understand why even if this is escapist fantasy it has to be "fair". What I think would be a stronger claim, and I should note that I've already agreed with this claim, that in escapist fantasy there is no necessity of conforming to human limitations. We should be happy to accept that the answer to the question is "magic", and that there are in our escapist fantasies characters like Wonder Woman who are as strong as any man. What I reject is that the existence of this fantasy is necessary to be comfortable as women, which seems to be the subtext of a certain sort of argument being offered here. And again, that may be true of you, but I would be very unhappy indeed if we said that literature could only have happy endings, or even that if it did not have a happy ending that the point of the story had been to relish on human misery - which I emphatically reject. [/QUOTE]

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