Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7177707" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I don't know that it is unable to do so, but rarely that it typically has been considered too much of an edge case to spend actual rules on, leaving it up to the DM to rule on the fly if, for example, a PC thief polymorphed into an ape wants to try picking a lock with a set of thieves tools.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Or an elderly woman, who might have better manual dexterity than the adventurers, but also have difficulty walking. But yes, each of the six standard ability scores bundles together concepts that are not identical and sometimes have questionable relation to each other. You could easily break each ability score into three different concepts and have a system with 18 ability scores. But then, this wouldn't be perfectly realistic either, plenty of characteristics like speed and agility are actually not independent. Agility is not solely dependent on your strength to weight ratio, but is limited by it. Strength is not solely dependent on mass, but is limited by it, and certain applications of strength - punching power for example - are additive with mass, while effective punching power is also limited by technique which is again limited by agility. </p><p></p><p>You have to balance realism with playability, and recognize further that the more complicated your system is, the harder it is to play test, and the more likely it is that it in some way breaks when stressed. Simple systems may never give truly 'correct' answers, but by being abstract they tend to give usable answers and are easier to balance. </p><p></p><p>And in the actual context of this discussion, they avoid purity for reality aesthetics that force you into awkward conversations about the combat ability of human females prior to the gender liberating invention of the firearm, or the societal importance of military hierarchies prior to the same invention. </p><p></p><p>Abstraction is your friend in a lot of ways. Don't knock it too much. It only seems like it has a big disadvantage on describing things compared to reification when you have actually tried hard to use reification. I have tried going the other way before - look up GULLIVER for GURPS - and in the context of GURPS, it's theoretically easy to separate out a gibbon or caracal's agility from its ability to hold and manipulate objects. But the trouble is, to accurately represent animals requires massive stat blocks that rarely have to do with anything important enough the game that you'd actually roll the dice to represent it. And if it's not important enough to test with fortune, then it's really not important enough to care about mechanically. </p><p></p><p>Still, if you really care about these body plan issues and sense of realism, my advice would be to compile a list of Disadvantages (anti-Feats) which describe body plan limitations - blind, lame, no-manipulative digits, quadruped, serpentine body, one-handed, one-eyed, deaf, no depth perception, limited fine motor control, and so on and so forth. In addition to helping you describe animals in those rare cases where it matters, many of these Disadvantages can help you describe a critical hit system if you are into that sort of thing. Virtually any wound can be described abstractly (there is that word again) as a combination of ability score damage and/or disadvantage infliction.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7177707, member: 4937"] I don't know that it is unable to do so, but rarely that it typically has been considered too much of an edge case to spend actual rules on, leaving it up to the DM to rule on the fly if, for example, a PC thief polymorphed into an ape wants to try picking a lock with a set of thieves tools. Or an elderly woman, who might have better manual dexterity than the adventurers, but also have difficulty walking. But yes, each of the six standard ability scores bundles together concepts that are not identical and sometimes have questionable relation to each other. You could easily break each ability score into three different concepts and have a system with 18 ability scores. But then, this wouldn't be perfectly realistic either, plenty of characteristics like speed and agility are actually not independent. Agility is not solely dependent on your strength to weight ratio, but is limited by it. Strength is not solely dependent on mass, but is limited by it, and certain applications of strength - punching power for example - are additive with mass, while effective punching power is also limited by technique which is again limited by agility. You have to balance realism with playability, and recognize further that the more complicated your system is, the harder it is to play test, and the more likely it is that it in some way breaks when stressed. Simple systems may never give truly 'correct' answers, but by being abstract they tend to give usable answers and are easier to balance. And in the actual context of this discussion, they avoid purity for reality aesthetics that force you into awkward conversations about the combat ability of human females prior to the gender liberating invention of the firearm, or the societal importance of military hierarchies prior to the same invention. Abstraction is your friend in a lot of ways. Don't knock it too much. It only seems like it has a big disadvantage on describing things compared to reification when you have actually tried hard to use reification. I have tried going the other way before - look up GULLIVER for GURPS - and in the context of GURPS, it's theoretically easy to separate out a gibbon or caracal's agility from its ability to hold and manipulate objects. But the trouble is, to accurately represent animals requires massive stat blocks that rarely have to do with anything important enough the game that you'd actually roll the dice to represent it. And if it's not important enough to test with fortune, then it's really not important enough to care about mechanically. Still, if you really care about these body plan issues and sense of realism, my advice would be to compile a list of Disadvantages (anti-Feats) which describe body plan limitations - blind, lame, no-manipulative digits, quadruped, serpentine body, one-handed, one-eyed, deaf, no depth perception, limited fine motor control, and so on and so forth. In addition to helping you describe animals in those rare cases where it matters, many of these Disadvantages can help you describe a critical hit system if you are into that sort of thing. Virtually any wound can be described abstractly (there is that word again) as a combination of ability score damage and/or disadvantage infliction. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?
Top