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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 7188434" data-attributes="member: 23751">The math is off there.&nbsp; By that average array, it takes 6 wishes to get two 18's and you then have to multiply by 4 since the party is greater than one.&nbsp; Also, since it's almost definite you aren't 18th level yet and can't cast wish, you have to find all 24 of those wishes.&nbsp; Good luck.&nbsp; Most likely, the entire party will be splitting 1-4 wishes in total by the time they are anywhere near 18th level, so multiple 18's are not going to be a concern, even if you allow stat raises past 16 to cost a single wish.You have to find the wishes, so the aging isn't going to be in play.&nbsp; If you are already 18th level, a few 18's aren't going to be much of a concern.&nbsp; The power level is already extreme.I disagree.&nbsp; That makes them very accessible.&nbsp; Player: DM, what do I need to do to make a ring of spell turning.DM:&nbsp; You do this.Player: Okay, I do that.It's that simple to access the rules.&nbsp; The only thing that might be hard is if the DM decides to make you find a bunch of impossible ingredients like the first ray of the sun following a full solar eclipse.&nbsp; That's not the rules, though.&nbsp; That's the DM.That single example is not a rule at all.&nbsp; It's not even a suggestion.&nbsp; This is the only rule in that section...&quot;With respect to the former, you must determine which spells and ingredients are necessary to the manufacture of each specific magic item.&quot;&nbsp; That's it and nothing more.&nbsp; It's up to the DM how easy or hard it will be.&nbsp; Period.&nbsp; Nobody is required to play the way Gygax did, or have the preferences Gygax had.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 7188434, member: 23751"] The math is off there. By that average array, it takes 6 wishes to get two 18's and you then have to multiply by 4 since the party is greater than one. Also, since it's almost definite you aren't 18th level yet and can't cast wish, you have to find all 24 of those wishes. Good luck. Most likely, the entire party will be splitting 1-4 wishes in total by the time they are anywhere near 18th level, so multiple 18's are not going to be a concern, even if you allow stat raises past 16 to cost a single wish. You have to find the wishes, so the aging isn't going to be in play. If you are already 18th level, a few 18's aren't going to be much of a concern. The power level is already extreme. I disagree. That makes them very accessible. Player: DM, what do I need to do to make a ring of spell turning. DM: You do this. Player: Okay, I do that. It's that simple to access the rules. The only thing that might be hard is if the DM decides to make you find a bunch of impossible ingredients like the first ray of the sun following a full solar eclipse. That's not the rules, though. That's the DM. That single example is not a rule at all. It's not even a suggestion. This is the only rule in that section... "With respect to the former, you must determine which spells and ingredients are necessary to the manufacture of each specific magic item." That's it and nothing more. It's up to the DM how easy or hard it will be. Period. Nobody is required to play the way Gygax did, or have the preferences Gygax had. [/QUOTE]

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