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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7188558" data-attributes="member: 4937">No, I'm not refusing anything.  You offered the proposition that magic item creation had gotten easier from edition to edition.  That's what is being argued here, not whether it is merely possible in 1e.  If anyone can't see the point, it's you.  I have tried to disengage from you because I didn't want to get into a direct argument with you, but you keep pestering me, so I'll be blunt.  Your interpretation of the 1e rules varies from overly generous and permissive, to down right objectively wrong.   For example, restoration does not restore constitution lost through casting of the permanency spell, as anyone can read the rules and discover.  Moreover, nothing about the wording of the permanency spell suggest that this is some sort of curable damage or drain anyway, but rather an actual change of the score.   Likewise, putting a fully mature clone into temporal stasis prevents the clone from going mad, but does not prevent the original caster from going mad.   And that's not even to get into the problem that I don't agree a mature clone, even one that isn't insane yet, is going to agree to go into stasis voluntarily but will almost certain rationally request the original go into stasis and murder them if they do not (or even if they do) if for no other reason than that is exactly what the original is planning to do with respect to the clone.  Nor do I agree you can subvert the notion of who the caster of the wish is by using the magic jar spell, nor do I agree that you can find willing victims for this plan much less that such willing victims can be bribed to accept for mere gold.  And so on and so on and so on, through the dozens of either questionable, unique, or down right wrong rulings you've flung out in the thread as evidence of the truth that magic item creation was easy in 1e.  Yes, I fully agree that it was possible.  The persistent and resourceful 18th level M-U could eventually gain the means to create a ring of spell storing to his design.  But, you refuse to see that the possibility of success was never even what was under discussion.  To argue from the possibility of success after arduous in game quests that the process is therefore much easier than that of later editions boggles the mind.   And we've clearly seen that it's only much easier if you are willing to handwave away certain steps and difficulties with convenient rulings to achieve that desired result, which you did.I'd happily agree that the process in 1e is more immersive and compelling than the vending machine model of 3e, but that's not nearly the same as it being easier and more accessible.And really, give it a rest about your groups supposed elite status.  EnWorld is the big boy leagues, and your swooning over your own success in whatever small pond you swam in is as fallacious of a way to support an argument as it is annoying.</blockquote>

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