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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5766585" data-attributes="member: 2011">I never once said that. That's your (and some other people's) spin on what I said. If you go back and read what I wrote, I said that there are tactics such as using forced movement to push a foe into a hazard which are not especially clever, rather they are standard tactics. No different than moving into flank is a standard tactic.If a player playing 1E managed to convince his DM that his PC was flanking a foe because of some reason and the DM gave that player a bonus because of that, it might be considered clever because the player doesn't normally have that tool in this toolkit. In 4E, flanking is not a clever tactic. Finding an unusual way to move in order to get flanking might be clever. But flanking is 4E 101, just like forced movement into a hazard is 4E 101.Considering forced movement into a hazard creative and intelligent play? It's not stupid play, but it's not especially unprecedented or ingenious play. It's just typical play. For those of you who consider it special, I probably cannot convince you that it's just a normal tactic that the game designers handed players on a plate. It can lead to some special moments where the entire table erupts in cheers and laughter, but the tactic itself is not special or unique. Just one more tool in the player's toolbox and one that is heavily wellworn at some tables.</blockquote>