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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5549068" data-attributes="member: 78116">I've run games with something like 20ish people over 2.5 or so years of 4E, plus other one shots and similar. I have never once had a problem eliminating any of this with the simple RAW bag of rats rules. Indeed the bag of rats being a handy codified rule in 4E makes this kind of discussion very easy. That I am 100% absolutely consistent in ruling it for pretty much everything in the game, means it never becomes an issue. I've only had it come up once and that was an epic tier Cleric:Warpriest wanting to use Battlecry (while in the middle of nowhere). I immediately shot it down, because if I am inconsistent I'm going to have to start specifically ruling on a power by power basis.That's pretty much what he's going to have to do. Additionally the logic is really inconsistent and fails to make any sense (to me). The rules don't say you need to be a meaningful threat to your target to get an effect (this is a different rules issue entirely). So what's to stop just pulling out a crappy weapon and using that on the PC to get the excellent daily power effect? You'll do minimal damage (if at all) and get a great effect. He's allowed this in the rules by breaking the RAW on how targeting and gaining effects from attack powers work in the RC. Now he needs to add further rules to why that doesn't work and we go down the rabbit hole from there into specific situations. I used blinded + marked above, but basically if you can't meaningfully hit your target does that mean you can't get any effect from a power?Quite frankly, the rules allow you to stop everything from the get go and are (as of the Rules Compendium especially) 100% clear by RAW. You are not a meaningful threat to yourself. Your allies are not a meaningful threat to you. A rat is not a meaningful threat to you. The air is not a meaningful threat to you. That sinister looking table? That too is not a meaningful threat to you. Therefore attack powers effects do not work when you use them on your allies. As I've literally never seen this "strict" interpretation cause a single rules issue or be unclear on how it will work at any point in nearly seven campaigns I've run, multiple one shots (with various people) and what encounters I got the pleasure of running - it just works. It can feel somewhat strange rules wise, but I can't think of many things in 4E that aren't strange rules wise in various situations. Ultimately it produces the most consistent game and everyone knows how it works.</blockquote>

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