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Message: <blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 500220" data-attributes="member: 151">Re: ReObviously, you haven't read George R. R. Martin's 'Song of Fire & Ice', then.  Athurian myth is rife with wizards and witches who are anything buy the most powerful of beings....most of the magic in the myths involves brewing potions and fortelling the future.  Gandalf is another poor example: he's an Istari, not a human, and many of his offensive powers (which are only hinted at in passing) come from a magic ring he bears...note that he spends as much time swinging a sword as casting spells.  All of which is generally irrelevant to the discusion of haste's balance compared to other spells in the D&D 3E system.Not true at all.  Effectively halving the rate of spellcasting and removing a non-specified +4 to AC can have a dramatic effect on a combat.  Borderline attackers will miss, characters will be able to use items and full-attack, and spell casters will double their rate of fire.  The contention that haste merely speeds the result, not affects it, is specious.  Ten girallons charge the party.  The mage has one round to him.  One quick haste and he can still throw a fireball before they arrive.  Next round, he can throw two disintigrates, not one.  Perhaps he casts mass haste or the rogue uses a scroll: spring attack and shot on the run now become more effective than before.  The rogue can now use a wand of fireball in the left hand, and attack with a short sword in the right.  The fighter can move around the battlefield with much greater effeciency, delivering full attacks and still being able to move.  The girallons do considerable damage in melee...should they be fighting without haste, the party may well be slaughtered.Which is, again, irrelevant to the concept of haste's balance.  It does, however, illustrate that haste changes the battle's tenor dramatically.  Four more rounds of pain from the girallons may result in a TPK.  If the combat is entirely dependent on mage casting Finger of Death, then there is an entirely different problem to discuss.I don't recall saying you couldn't do a caster without haste...merely that I'd never seen one, and would be suprised to see someone go to the trouble.  An arcane caster can get by fine with anything he chooses, I'm sure.  Again, that's not what we're discussing.  That 99% of mages take it doesn't highlight it's balance issues, one way or the other, as I already said.  No, they're stating that in relation to the rest of the magic system, the spell haste seems out of whack.  While I'm leaning towards making a minor modification to haste, I don't think it's incredibly unbalanced.  Howerver, comparing it to a level 9 spell or a level 6 spell that is unavailable to arcane casters hardly seems to be a good direct comparison.Haste needs to be matched in context with similar spells and spells of the same level, both for utility and general power in-game.Expeditious Retreat is a 1st level spell, range personal only, that allows the caster to double his movement/jump rate for minute/level.  Good spell, effective and scales, so even a 20th level character might choose to use it under some circumstances.Jump is similar to Expeditious Retreat but with a touch range, and gives +30 to jump checks for minute/level.  Useful, but not terribly powerful, and becomes useless to mages fairly quickly.  Good for use as a support spell.Spider Climb, similar to Jump, but lets subject walk on walls and ceilings for 10 mins/level.  Very nice as support spell.  Not terribly strong for mages, but good for others.Shield, a favorite of mages, gives a +7 AC cover bonus to half of the battlefield and a +3 to reflex saves for minute/level.Mage Armor, a mage must have, gives +4 to AC as an armor bonus, range touch, for HOUR/level.At 2nd level, we have Blur, a spell granting a 20% miss chance for minute/level to a touched creature.  Good, but better spell, Blink, is around the corner.At 3rd level, where haste comes into play we have:Blink, an improved Blur with a 50% miss chance on the target, but the attacker suffers a 20% miss chance of his own.  Duration is round/level and range is personal.  Useful, but limited with some serious drawbacks for melee characters.Gaseous Form, turns the character into a +1/20 DR cloud of gas with a fly of 10', virtual immunity to physical damage, but with a loss of spell-casting ability, and specific movement bonuses and penalties (no water, vulnerable to wind, can move through tiny cracks, and so on).  Useful, but again, with some seroius limitations.Slow, the only offensive spell so far.  Automatically cancels haste (similar to light/darkness).  Range is close (25'+5'/2) and duration is rnd/level.  -2 to AC, Reflex save, character can only take half-actions, melee damage and attack, if no will save made.  Area of effect is 30 ft., and targets are 1/level.  Powerful, but not amazingly so.  Enemy spell-casters have a good chance of resisting it, and it's area is essentially melee only.  Like haste, it's only as powerful as what it's combined with.Fly, gives the character the ability to move in all three dimensions at a speed of 90' (effectively tripling movement rate for the average human character) for 10 min/level at a touch range.  Another perennial favorite due to it's widespread benefits and applications.  Especially as fireball, lightning bolt and other range spells become more and more prevalent.So now that we've seen some related spells, let's compare:Haste is a close spell with a duration of rnd/level, as per Slow.  It grants a freely stackable +4 to AC, 1.5 times increase in jump, and an extra partial action.  It can be negated by a Fortitude save (why is Slow a will save, and Haste a Fort save?).  Slow also has to beat spell resistance.Slow can affect multiple creatures, but has a saving throw.  Slow reduces AC by 2, whereas Haste increases it by 4 (via a haste/dodge bonus).  Slow also reduces reflex save, melee attack/damage by 2.  Both move your jump ability by .5 in either direction.  However, Slow is an offensive spell, and while it appears balanced with Haste, their uses are considerably different.  More, Slow is not an automatic success like Haste, under normal circumstances.  As a 3rd level spell, except for countering haste, Slow has a relativlely low save.  For a caster with 18 INT, that'd be a DC 17....and as the levels go up, this becomes weaker and weaker, whereas Haste does not.  A Shadow Mastiff, a CR 5 creature, has a +5 Will save.  Unlike fireball and lightning bolt, Slow is an all or nothing result...failure results in no penalty at all.  Haste has no such restriciton.  Compared with other so-called 'buffing' spells, Haste appears much stronger.  Unlike Fly, it's a Close range spell, although it has a much shorter duration.  Unlike Gaseous form, you suffer no restrictions, other than the shorter duration.  The shorter duration is not terribly problematic, as it is functionally longer than most combats as often as not.  It IS a valid restriction, but out of combat, haste has no real benefit, whereas a spell like Fly and Gaseous Form do.In short, it's difficult to make an exact analysis of how powerful the spell is without considering all the factors that go into it, and whether or not.  This analysis says to me that the spell is borderline unbalanced, but not quite.  I would like to see more analysis of the spell, and less of it's implementation.</blockquote>

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