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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8311199" data-attributes="member: 29398">I've bolded a couple of assumptions you're IMO wrongly baking in here.&nbsp; Not everyone plays for heroism, or to vanquish evil; oftentimes those outcomes are merely side effects - perhaps not even intentional - of the adventuring the game is truly about.Further, a video game where you never fail is also going to become mighty boring in a hurry.Here, if there's a door they can't pass then so be it; they can't go that way so instead they might as well go where they can, loot what they can, and make a note to maybe come back later with better door-removal tools...or leave it for someone else to do.The last adventure I ran, the party had to bail back to town something like six different times in order to regroup and - often - recruit replacements for the characters that had died.&nbsp; That said, there weren't any hard-stop elements in that adventure such as the unopenable door example, just more opposition and danger than the party could handle on one run.&nbsp; Certainly a sense of accomplishment when they finally did finish it.Starting with 4e, however, the concept of having to take more than one run at an adventure seems to have been largely pushed aside because having to retreat and try again is frustrating for the players.You say frustration drives players away, and that's fine with me: a player who can't or won't handle some in-game frustration isn't someone I want at my table, nor is a player who has been conditioned to expect to be able to curb-stomp or immediately solve/bypass anything encountered.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8311199, member: 29398"] I've bolded a couple of assumptions you're IMO wrongly baking in here. Not everyone plays for heroism, or to vanquish evil; oftentimes those outcomes are merely side effects - perhaps not even intentional - of the adventuring the game is truly about. Further, a video game where you never fail is also going to become mighty boring in a hurry. Here, if there's a door they can't pass then so be it; they can't go that way so instead they might as well go where they can, loot what they can, and make a note to maybe come back later with better door-removal tools...or leave it for someone else to do. The last adventure I ran, the party had to bail back to town something like six different times in order to regroup and - often - recruit replacements for the characters that had died. That said, there weren't any hard-stop elements in that adventure such as the unopenable door example, just more opposition and danger than the party could handle on one run. Certainly a sense of accomplishment when they finally did finish it. Starting with 4e, however, the concept of having to take more than one run at an adventure seems to have been largely pushed aside because having to retreat and try again is frustrating for the players. You say frustration drives players away, and that's fine with me: a player who can't or won't handle some in-game frustration isn't someone I want at my table, nor is a player who has been conditioned to expect to be able to curb-stomp or immediately solve/bypass anything encountered. [/QUOTE]

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