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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8280040" data-attributes="member: 29398">And harder at the same time; because instead of re-rolling until you get a high result you get one shot, period.Same thing.&nbsp; The classic example is trying to lift a portcullis.&nbsp; One person tries, rolls, and fails.&nbsp; So two people try lifting it together (the material change in the fiction being the addition of the second person), roll, and fail.&nbsp; So someone else hammers the spikes where they meet the ground just in case they've rusted in place, to break them loose; this is a material change, so another roll is given.In broader terms, you don't get another roll until and unless you try somethng different.&nbsp; Straight out of Gygax 1e, this is.You're not the only member of the party!Your PC might not get bored doing what you're doing but the others sure might get bored watching you.IME there's been a lot of PCs who have the attention span of chickens and who in the fiction would get bored with any delay.I might have the sequence wrong, and I forget who said what, but in the session I'm talking about all of the below occurred.&nbsp; On approachign the door we had immediately seen there's no lock (the DM had a picture of it, shared on roll20, so we all knew exactly what it looked like) and no handles, and no visible hinges.&nbsp; Also, this is a party ranging from 8th-13th level; which is pretty high for 1e.[searching for a hidden lock in the door produced nothing]Player A: &quot;Cast Detect Magic.&quot; DM: &quot;Yes, the door is radiating very strong magic.&quot;Player A: &quot;We cast Knock at it.&quot;&nbsp; DM: &quot;Nothing happens.&quot;Player B: &quot;We try touching [various heretofore unidentified magic items] to the door, does it open?&quot;.&nbsp; DM: &quot;Nothing happens.&quot;Player C: &quot;There was a very out-of-place long metal rod back down the passage, let's go get it and see if it helps here.&quot;&nbsp; DM: &quot;OK, you retrieve the rod.&quot; [players then try various ideas with this rod, end result of all is]&nbsp; DM: &quot;Nothing happens.&quot;Player A: &quot;Maybe it needs some bizarre spell cast on it.&nbsp; Try Faerie Fire.&quot; DM: &quot;Nothing happens.&quot; [several other spells are cast, same result]Player B: &quot;Screw this.&nbsp; This door's a distraction; I bet the real door is hidden nearby.&nbsp; Search the area for secret doors!&quot;&nbsp; DM: &quot;After a lengthy search you come up dry.&quot;Etc. etc.&nbsp; There was no time pressure on us that we knew of, but by the time we got through that sucker we were down about a dozen spells and various other pre-cast buffs had long since worn off.&nbsp; But what happened next?&nbsp; The PCs were bored, and so threw caution to the wind and went off in three different directions.&nbsp; One found trouble.....How is this not gameplay, and how is this not following the play loop?!But don't puzzles and riddles give the exact same effect, though: you're stuck until you can solve it?Then what do you do when success (with meaningful consequence) is in doubt but failure has no real consequence attached?Where to me metagaming is about the biggest negative effect there is and should be curtailed (or better yet, eliminated) wherever it's reasonably practical to do so.I think (?) we agree here; with our difference perhaps (?) being that I don't care if that happens-during-play story moves forward or not and-or how long it might take to do so.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8280040, member: 29398"] And harder at the same time; because instead of re-rolling until you get a high result you get one shot, period. Same thing. The classic example is trying to lift a portcullis. One person tries, rolls, and fails. So two people try lifting it together (the material change in the fiction being the addition of the second person), roll, and fail. So someone else hammers the spikes where they meet the ground just in case they've rusted in place, to break them loose; this is a material change, so another roll is given. In broader terms, you don't get another roll until and unless you try somethng different. Straight out of Gygax 1e, this is. You're not the only member of the party! Your PC might not get bored doing what you're doing but the others sure might get bored watching you. IME there's been a lot of PCs who have the attention span of chickens and who in the fiction would get bored with any delay. I might have the sequence wrong, and I forget who said what, but in the session I'm talking about all of the below occurred. On approachign the door we had immediately seen there's no lock (the DM had a picture of it, shared on roll20, so we all knew exactly what it looked like) and no handles, and no visible hinges. Also, this is a party ranging from 8th-13th level; which is pretty high for 1e. [searching for a hidden lock in the door produced nothing] Player A: "Cast [I]Detect Magic[/I]." DM: "Yes, the door is radiating very strong magic." Player A: "We cast [I]Knock[/I] at it." DM: "Nothing happens." Player B: "We try touching [various heretofore unidentified magic items] to the door, does it open?". DM: "Nothing happens." Player C: "There was a very out-of-place long metal rod back down the passage, let's go get it and see if it helps here." DM: "OK, you retrieve the rod." [players then try various ideas with this rod, end result of all is] DM: "Nothing happens." Player A: "Maybe it needs some bizarre spell cast on it. Try [I]Faerie Fire[/I]." DM: "Nothing happens." [several other spells are cast, same result] Player B: "Screw this. This door's a distraction; I bet the real door is hidden nearby. Search the area for secret doors!" DM: "After a lengthy search you come up dry." Etc. etc. There was no time pressure on us that we knew of, but by the time we got through that sucker we were down about a dozen spells and various other pre-cast buffs had long since worn off. But what happened next? The PCs were bored, and so threw caution to the wind and went off in three different directions. One found trouble..... [I]How is this not gameplay, and how is this not following the play loop[/I]?! But don't puzzles and riddles give the exact same effect, though: you're stuck until you can solve it? Then what do you do when success (with meaningful consequence) is in doubt but failure has no real consequence attached? Where to me metagaming is about the biggest negative effect there is and should be curtailed (or better yet, eliminated) wherever it's reasonably practical to do so. I think (?) we agree here; with our difference perhaps (?) being that I don't care if that happens-during-play story moves forward or not and-or how long it might take to do so. [/QUOTE]

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