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Do you want your DM to fudge?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 6808676" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>Which is the exact same thing as the player who decides to play D&D with a DM that might fudge is saying "I think this is fair and these are the odds I want to play by."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>OK, but I am discussing "a thing allowed in the DMG to enable a variety of play styles" that virtually everybody I have ever played with personally in 30+ years does use. </p><p></p><p>Ironically, bards (yes, even including that beast of the 1st edition bard) have generally been the most favored class by players in my campaigns, including me. My main campaign has two rogues, two bards, a ranger, and a druid. One of the bards and one of the rogues have gone (actually, a prior druid also) since they players have other commitments.</p><p></p><p>You may not be discussing RAW, but I don't recall seeing a rules of this debate that indicate what is, and isn't, within the scope of the discussion. Nor would I ever presume that everyone knows what RAW are, not least because until I actually pulled out some rulebooks <em>I</em> didn't realize that fudging is actually within the RAW. Granted, I may be the only person on the planet that didn't know that, but I doubt it. And apparently I'm not everyone because I didn't know that.</p><p></p><p>Actually, no, I change that. We <em>are</em> discussing RAW because you and others are specifically saying that you don't like a RAW and that it shouldn't be used. Neither is a house-rule, because neither is changing the RAW, just selecting which rules are acceptable. So I guess I would call them table-rules - that at this table, at this point in time, these are the rules we're choosing to use from within the RAW. </p><p></p><p>Some in the discussion may be trying to convince others that their position is 'right.'</p><p></p><p>My personal input is to try to frame it around the fact that both are acceptable as RAW, and learn what objections others have against either position.</p><p></p><p>My ultimate goal is purely selfish in that I'm always looking for ways to improve my DMing, and so I like to dig deeper into what others think to understand better, and also dig deeper to understand why I do what I do.</p><p></p><p>The effect of fudging is simple. It alters the probabilities a bit. How much and how often depends on the DM that uses it. But I don't think we're discussing that either. It seems pretty clear that the greater 'we' are largely discussing our personal feelings about whether we like fudging or not, and why. Sure, if you want to define it as 'you risk sacrificing challenge for something else' I'm OK with that. Although sometimes the something else is more challenge, and a more challenging challenge than the original challenge (like, say, death, that's not terribly challenging, just final. At least for a while. Usually. It's not a challenge to role-play, though). But ultimately the question I ask again is, why is that bad?</p><p></p><p>Regardless of whether that assessment is accurate or not, challenge isn't (always) the defined purpose of the game. If challenge, as defined by the result of dice rolls untainted by DM fudging, is the purpose of the game, then the sessions in my campaign where we don't have a single die roll at all would be even worse, I'd guess.</p><p></p><p>I don't particularly care is players think, or even know if I fudged. Whether I gave them a bonus or penalty in my head or on paper before or after they made the die roll isn't really important. Sometimes somebody makes a roll and reminds me of a circumstance, or asks me if a certain circumstance matters. If I think it does, I modify the roll. Sometimes I think of it myself, after they make the roll. If that circumstance happens to be that they won't have access to raise dead for at least 20 (in world) days, in which case they'll have to find a cleric that can case resurrection, and it will be at least 3 or 4 sessions before the player can participate and might as well stay home, I might find an alternative. Having a traveling cleric in the middle of a vast abandoned and unknown catacombs suddenly appear and raise them seems more detrimental to me than just ignoring the massive damage critical at the time.</p><p></p><p>In fact, now that I think about it, it's not unusual for anything that I've fudged to turn into a house-rule that I tell the group about after the fact anyway. It's probably even rarer that I fudge a roll and the players don't know about it when I think about it. But I guess part of the reason they don't care is because if I do fudge, it's to their benefit. But then they aren't concerned about 'the challenge' or really the game itself. They are concerned about the characters and their story.</p><p></p><p>So sure, regardless of specifics of the fudge, it's mostly about the story. Well, about all of the players at the table to be able to participate in the story and not be dead at an inopportune moment. And that's pretty rare too, because of the nature of my house-rules and the world they populate.</p><p></p><p>If the purpose of the game was simply challenge, then you don't need a DM, or even a group. You sit down with your dice, your random dungeon tables, random encounter tables, and start rolling dice. A bit extreme and absurd, perhaps, but it's been done. There were several solo adventures published in the 2nd edition (Catacombs books) that allowed you to play a D&D game sans DM. </p><p></p><p>I don't fudge often, I think, but I have. Just been part of the way I learned to DM. So right now I'm considering should I change? What's the benefit? Perhaps I need to do it less, consider alternatives like fail-forward (or is that also fudging). In the end I don't really care what something is, or what it's called. But I do want to make sure what I do is helping make the games I run more enjoyable for everybody. And that would include not doing something that would offend others, although I can't say I think it's fair for a single voice to have veto power either.</p><p></p><p>Ilbranteloth</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 6808676, member: 6778044"] Which is the exact same thing as the player who decides to play D&D with a DM that might fudge is saying "I think this is fair and these are the odds I want to play by." OK, but I am discussing "a thing allowed in the DMG to enable a variety of play styles" that virtually everybody I have ever played with personally in 30+ years does use. Ironically, bards (yes, even including that beast of the 1st edition bard) have generally been the most favored class by players in my campaigns, including me. My main campaign has two rogues, two bards, a ranger, and a druid. One of the bards and one of the rogues have gone (actually, a prior druid also) since they players have other commitments. You may not be discussing RAW, but I don't recall seeing a rules of this debate that indicate what is, and isn't, within the scope of the discussion. Nor would I ever presume that everyone knows what RAW are, not least because until I actually pulled out some rulebooks [i]I[/i] didn't realize that fudging is actually within the RAW. Granted, I may be the only person on the planet that didn't know that, but I doubt it. And apparently I'm not everyone because I didn't know that. Actually, no, I change that. We [i]are[/i] discussing RAW because you and others are specifically saying that you don't like a RAW and that it shouldn't be used. Neither is a house-rule, because neither is changing the RAW, just selecting which rules are acceptable. So I guess I would call them table-rules - that at this table, at this point in time, these are the rules we're choosing to use from within the RAW. Some in the discussion may be trying to convince others that their position is 'right.' My personal input is to try to frame it around the fact that both are acceptable as RAW, and learn what objections others have against either position. My ultimate goal is purely selfish in that I'm always looking for ways to improve my DMing, and so I like to dig deeper into what others think to understand better, and also dig deeper to understand why I do what I do. The effect of fudging is simple. It alters the probabilities a bit. How much and how often depends on the DM that uses it. But I don't think we're discussing that either. It seems pretty clear that the greater 'we' are largely discussing our personal feelings about whether we like fudging or not, and why. Sure, if you want to define it as 'you risk sacrificing challenge for something else' I'm OK with that. Although sometimes the something else is more challenge, and a more challenging challenge than the original challenge (like, say, death, that's not terribly challenging, just final. At least for a while. Usually. It's not a challenge to role-play, though). But ultimately the question I ask again is, why is that bad? Regardless of whether that assessment is accurate or not, challenge isn't (always) the defined purpose of the game. If challenge, as defined by the result of dice rolls untainted by DM fudging, is the purpose of the game, then the sessions in my campaign where we don't have a single die roll at all would be even worse, I'd guess. I don't particularly care is players think, or even know if I fudged. Whether I gave them a bonus or penalty in my head or on paper before or after they made the die roll isn't really important. Sometimes somebody makes a roll and reminds me of a circumstance, or asks me if a certain circumstance matters. If I think it does, I modify the roll. Sometimes I think of it myself, after they make the roll. If that circumstance happens to be that they won't have access to raise dead for at least 20 (in world) days, in which case they'll have to find a cleric that can case resurrection, and it will be at least 3 or 4 sessions before the player can participate and might as well stay home, I might find an alternative. Having a traveling cleric in the middle of a vast abandoned and unknown catacombs suddenly appear and raise them seems more detrimental to me than just ignoring the massive damage critical at the time. In fact, now that I think about it, it's not unusual for anything that I've fudged to turn into a house-rule that I tell the group about after the fact anyway. It's probably even rarer that I fudge a roll and the players don't know about it when I think about it. But I guess part of the reason they don't care is because if I do fudge, it's to their benefit. But then they aren't concerned about 'the challenge' or really the game itself. They are concerned about the characters and their story. So sure, regardless of specifics of the fudge, it's mostly about the story. Well, about all of the players at the table to be able to participate in the story and not be dead at an inopportune moment. And that's pretty rare too, because of the nature of my house-rules and the world they populate. If the purpose of the game was simply challenge, then you don't need a DM, or even a group. You sit down with your dice, your random dungeon tables, random encounter tables, and start rolling dice. A bit extreme and absurd, perhaps, but it's been done. There were several solo adventures published in the 2nd edition (Catacombs books) that allowed you to play a D&D game sans DM. I don't fudge often, I think, but I have. Just been part of the way I learned to DM. So right now I'm considering should I change? What's the benefit? Perhaps I need to do it less, consider alternatives like fail-forward (or is that also fudging). In the end I don't really care what something is, or what it's called. But I do want to make sure what I do is helping make the games I run more enjoyable for everybody. And that would include not doing something that would offend others, although I can't say I think it's fair for a single voice to have veto power either. Ilbranteloth [/QUOTE]
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