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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 6808750" data-attributes="member: 6778044">"...and that those people might not prefer it because they like more challenge is an entirely reasonable explanation for why"To which I'd add, there are other possible reasons as well;And your statement that this is fact:"-that if players become aware the GM fudges they feel less challenged"You may feel less challenged, others might feel less challenged, but not all will feel less challenged, therefore it is not a fact. I would be OK with 'it is a fact that some players may feel less challenged if they become aware that the GM fudges. Some may object on account of a perceived fairness or unfairness, often expressed as favoritism, for example. My real point is that whether or not you fudge the die rolls is only a part of what makes a game feel challenging to the players. Nor do I agree that I feel it's more important than a challenge. And I think my example of the bear was a very straightforward one that showed my entire intent was to demonstrate the challenge of my game, which was entirely successful, even though I was prepared to fudge if I had rolled a critical because that wasn't helpful, necessary, or proved my point any better than what had actually occurred. In fact, I suspect had I rolled a critical and let it fly, I would have been perceived as more punitive than interested in creating a challenge.Besides, the concept of feeling more or less challenged is a bit of a red herring anyway. Less challenged than what? The only really meaningful comparison would be the exact same encounter, with the exact same DM, presenting things the same way, only one time with fudging in play, and one time with fudging not in play. My house rules probably make my campaigns more challenging than many others. The fact that I tend not to go with recommended challenge ratings, nor do I prevent the PCs from encountering things beyond their capabilities, they must be prepared to find alternative solutions, which frequently includes retreat and running away, because they are very challenged.One of the following encounters (2nd level party) was with a (fighting) mated pair of ettins. The danger was immediately obvious because an NPC who was trying to stop the PCs from confronting the ettins at that time was killed in one shot. Through creative tactics, and some lucky rolls, they managed to see one ettin killed and the other ran off, and they saved the captives they were after, although they had lost the one that was killed in the battle.In this particular group, the topic of general style had arisen before the game, and I had said that the idea is to create a fun adventure, and that things will be challenging and deadly, but that I also don't let the dice control things 100%. So they were aware that the possibility of my fudging is there, even though I didn't. And none of them had any feeling other than it was very, very challenging and that they would be lucky to get out alive. They don't know whether I fudged or not, and after the sessions nobody asked. I started this campaign as a personal challenge to run a public campaign at a store to assess and improve my DMing skills. In fact, in the next encounter, with an unknown number of spiders, and at least one ettercap (which they killed), the thought it was potentially too dangerous to continue, and retreated to go around that portion of the woods. So I don't think anybody felt less or more challenged. They felt challenged. They felt that they were in serious danger. That's part of the point, it should feel challenging, even if it's not the only point.Really, my only objection to what you're saying is that there is some sort of implication that I'm saying that:--Everybody (or even most people) likes this approach (which is not true); and--It's a fact that everybody will feel less challenged if the DM fudges if they know the DM fudges, (which is also not true).Ilbranteloth</blockquote>

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