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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6809496" data-attributes="member: 22779">The point you're missing though is that the players do have the chance of discovering all of the things you mentioned.  They are there to be discovered, if the players want to.  IOW, actual discovery isn't really the issue.  it's the opportunity to discover.In secret fudging, there is no chance to discover that it was done, and that's the entire point of keeping it secret - to ensure that the players never see the strings being pulled.  And, again, the only reason that it's being kept secret is because if it is discovered, the players won't be happy about it.  OTOH, if I discover that secret door, I'm pretty happy.  If I uncover the monster's AC, I'm pretty ok with that. Presuming the monster has a name and a kind, I can leverage all sorts of character resources (skill checks, magic, class abilities) to discover that.  If I'm a 7th level battle master, I can discover at least two things about the monster's stat block simply by observing it.Keeping things behind the screen and unknown to the players but available to be discovered is not the same as keeping something secret and actively doing everything in your power to prevent the players from discovery./edited to add:Yes, I am changing my original point.  You're right, fudging need not be secret, if you define fudging as simply changing die rolls.  Like I said earlier, 5e has a plethora of means for changing die rolls, on both sides of the screen.  My issue is solely with what I'm going to term "secret fudging" and I define that as changing a roll without the table being aware that you are doing so, and specifically keeping that information from the table.It is interesting to note that games which include fudging mechanics - Savage World's Bennies, Fate's Fate Points, I'm sure there are many others, don't include advice for fudging.  They place fudging completely in the open and it would actually be pretty counter to the mechanics for the DM to secretly fudge.  IMO, since 5e has numerous ways for the players to mitigate luck and change die rolls, I really don't think 5e needs secret fudging.  I'd actually go some ways further and say that the advice included in the DMG is more a sop to older players who haven't quite wrapped their heads around the fact that 5e isn't AD&D and doesn't need secret fudging.  Although, that being said, if you were playing Basic 5e rules, where so many of those character mechanics for changing die rolls don't exist, then I could see the need for the DM to step in and adjust things more often.</blockquote>

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