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Message: <blockquote data-quote="M.L. Martin" data-source="post: 3266597" data-attributes="member: 4086">Subthread of old, arise from your grave . . .  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />    I think we need to nuance this a bit more, though.  It should be remembered that there are three different streams flowing into 3E--AD&D 1E, AD&D 2E, and BD&D.  (I seriously doubt that the designers looked at OD&D, and the players still playing it now likely will not switch before the Day of Doom.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":-)" title="Smile    :-)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":-)" /> )   All three had differences not only in mechanics, but in philosophy.  1E, from my limited knowledge of it, seems to be what 3E holds to closest in many ways, but with the Gamist element turned up to 11.   For an example of how things were different, I submit the following selection from an essay by Steve Winter, found in the 1993 TSR Master Catalog, Collector's Edition, titled "Why do I Play the ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Game?"      Now, you can argue with Winter's characterization of other systems and styles, and you can point out the downside of the virtues he touts:  the lack of ways to make characters different mechanically, the reliance on DM judgement which can be a double-edged sword, and the lack of tactical options.  You could even argue that this represents a departure from AD&D 1E's wargaming roots.    But what I think this selection does demonstrate, without argument, is a philosophy of the game and its design that is dramatically different from that of today.  One of the unexpected boons of the d20 license, I think, and one that has only really begun to prosper in the past couple years, is the possibility to create variants on the core system that suit different styles of play.  If you have a copy of Thirty Years of Adventure, check out Peter Adkison's essay on 3E design philosophy.  There were three different schools of thought at WotC--one that just wanted to tune up the rules, one that wanted a more streamlined 'storytelling' game, and one that wanted a fully integrated, systematized, and highly complex system.  The third is what Adkison supported, and what won out.   However, I think C&C has filled the niche for the first, and True20 may do the same for the second.  I know I'm giving it consideration, although STAR WARS d20 Saga Edition sounds very promising, and BESM 3E is a dark-horse candidate.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":-)" title="Smile    :-)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":-)" />   Matthew L. Martin</blockquote>

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