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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Storm Raven" data-source="post: 3270782" data-attributes="member: 307">Please. Show me a CR 10 foe that is anything other than a trivial challenge for a 20th level wizard.There you go with the petty and childish claims again.And? It may surprise you that I have DMed and played in campaigns using some, or all of the modifications you are talking about. And in none of them was "dipping" anything that really helped the PCs.You seem to think that you are the only one here who has made changes to the baseline. I believe you are sadly mistaken. And hopelessly arrogant on that score.I didn't assert that the assumptions might not be universally true. I asserted that it was completely untrue that making the sorts of changes you are talking about have any impact on this sort of character balance. The fact that you, for some reason, ignored the actual argument and instead chose to erect some sort of strawman in your mind (which you didn't actually try to argue against, but rather stated "I don't believe you") isn't a failing on my end of the stick. This might have been easy to figure out, had you actually explained your reasoning in the first place - because then your straw man would have been exposed right away.Give a CR 10 challenge that would be more than trivial to a 20th level wizard. Under any assumptions.Please. Even with antimagic zones, the wizard remains better off staying a wizard than trying to wade into battle with a longsword, +10 BAB, and 53 hit points at 20th level. And you are not talking about a CR 10 challenege then either, you have made the fundamental mistake of changing the nature of the challenge without realizing you have done so.And that statement has been shown, repeatedly, to be completely untrue. The cost is paid right now, you don't advance in your "primary" class, and often get benefits that are less useful than those you would get by going up a level in your primary class. The fact that you don't realize this makes me think that your claims about how hard campaigns are isn't actually a measure of how hard the campaigns are, but something else.Once again, completely untrue. In 1e, there were only a handful of balance problems in the rules, but they were clearly better than the alternatives, to the point where characters who did not take those options were significantly hampered by comparison. By contrast, the only thing you have shown with your "fighter dip" argument is that the 20th level wizard is better off.</blockquote>

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