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Message: <blockquote data-quote="molonel" data-source="post: 3272447" data-attributes="member: 10412">You asked me what I'd seen. I told you. You didn't ask me what was most advantageous. Like Storm Raven, I've also seen players become dissatisfied with all of those choices in the longterm. I'm in a campaign right now for the World's Largest Dungeon that's gone into Epic levels, and one of the things that everyone has been most grateful for is the retraining option the DM has allowed. And guess what? Everyone used the option to shed 1- and 2-level dips they'd made earlier in the campaign. Did they provide immediate benefits? Sure. With little or no longterm cost? No. Characters with less dipping started gaining bonus epic feats faster. People got to 20th level, and their BAB stopped wherever it was. Some characters never got their 4th iterative attacks because of sacrificed BAB. The spellcasters didn't dip because they wanted their spell progression.I think your "off the cuff" examples arise out of the fact that you're building characters on paper rather than playing them out in actual gameplay. Does dipping happen? Sure. It can spice up a character and give it extra flavor. It can, and frequently does, create annoying and frustrating gaps or weaknesses in a character in the longterm, particularly if taken to excess. A fighter 2, barbarian 2 is just not ZOMG! Uberpowerful!!! when compared to a fighter 4. A fighter 1, rogue 1, monk 1, ranger 1 isn't, either.Where dipping sometimes offers the sort of benefit you're talking about is when the synergy of special abilities from what is usually a diverse set of books creates a particular effect.For example, one person who died came back as a Druid 5 (PHB), Warshaper 5 (Complete Warrior), Nature's Warrior 3 (Complete Warrior), Master of Many Forms 7 (Complete Adventurer). He does this frequently, and I should note that most of his creations have died a rather ignoble death due to the unbalanced nature of his creations and the lopsided weaknesses they contain. I think he's on character number 5, while my mostly straight PHB Rogue is still my first character, and I'm quite satisfied with him. It's also worth mentioning that my character has been the only one capable of performing the tasks he does in the group, and everyone can tell you about his personality and antics throughout the course of what is now a 25 level campaign. They could even tell you how tall he is (2' 10"), because it's a running joke. The guy playing the druid-warshaper-nature's warrior-master of many forms? I couldn't even tell you what he looks like. The other casters like to make fun of him because I think he can cast 3rd level spells.It was also funny when he was saying, "Yeah, but I'm a tank" and I calmly described how I would kill his character if I had to, using Use Magic Device, some wands, and some scrolls. Yes, it would have taken some time, and yes, he could just run away. But the fact that my 2' 10" rogue could kill his uber creation bothered him.Yeah. The 3.0 Ranger was worthless. TWF was also way too expensive, requiring two feats, and so the 1-level dip made even more sense. Now it's two levels to get one feat on the Ranger, and Track doesn't make any sense unless you've got Survival ranks updated to make it a worthwhile feat.</blockquote>

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