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<blockquote data-quote="Panzeh" data-source="post: 4668108" data-attributes="member: 82267">I think of all the criticisms of 4e, this is probably the most cogent, that it's simply not that ambitious and the skill system doesn't seem to be all that well thought out, like a half-hearted nod toward 3e players.&nbsp; It's not so much that there were complex non-combat systems in 3e, because most of the non-combat models were spell vs save and basic skill check to get x result, or basically come up with a combo of spells to solve x.&nbsp; 4e's skill list is not nearly as thorough as 3e's, though it is much appreciated that complementary skills like hide/ms and spot/listen/search were combined.&nbsp; I don't think characters need skills in pure labor operations like farming, but in skilled professions like drafting or accounting or something it would be nice to have that as a skill, and it's difficult to graft on extra skills without changing the other skill rules.&nbsp; Then, probably some profession DCs would have to be added.Also, the level bonus to skills has to go, because it just seems to add numbers just to make them go higher, the difference in skills is more important than the number itself with respect to how the players regard proficiency.Simply adding in more uses of skills and DCs(for plain skill checks) for them would probably bring it up near 3e's level, though certainly concessions had to be made because of caster dominance in non-combat tasks.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Panzeh, post: 4668108, member: 82267"] I think of all the criticisms of 4e, this is probably the most cogent, that it's simply not that ambitious and the skill system doesn't seem to be all that well thought out, like a half-hearted nod toward 3e players. It's not so much that there were complex non-combat systems in 3e, because most of the non-combat models were spell vs save and basic skill check to get x result, or basically come up with a combo of spells to solve x. 4e's skill list is not nearly as thorough as 3e's, though it is much appreciated that complementary skills like hide/ms and spot/listen/search were combined. I don't think characters need skills in pure labor operations like farming, but in skilled professions like drafting or accounting or something it would be nice to have that as a skill, and it's difficult to graft on extra skills without changing the other skill rules. Then, probably some profession DCs would have to be added. Also, the level bonus to skills has to go, because it just seems to add numbers just to make them go higher, the difference in skills is more important than the number itself with respect to how the players regard proficiency. Simply adding in more uses of skills and DCs(for plain skill checks) for them would probably bring it up near 3e's level, though certainly concessions had to be made because of caster dominance in non-combat tasks. [/QUOTE]

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