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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4668135" data-attributes="member: 4937">Yeah, but isn't that basically true of any detective story?&nbsp; I mean, suppose that I was running a modern CSI campaign and the killer's fingerprints were on every murder weapon, and the victims blood could be found on the suspects clothes?&nbsp; If in the next session the killer carefully wiped away finger prints, incinerated or threw away clothes, and even left false clues, you wouldn't say, &quot;Hey, that's no fair.&nbsp; You nerfed all of my I WIN buttons!&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp; No, you'd say, &quot;This is a typical episode of CSI.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; Naturally, if you expect the investigation to be difficult, then its going to involve a mystery where the killer has been careful to destroy evidence, leave false clues, or frame up a likely suspect who happens to be innocent.&nbsp; That's just the standard trope in one of the genera. I would consider 'Speak with the Dead' to be interviewing witnesses.&nbsp; Like any witness, the dead guy doesn't necessarily need to be trustworthy.&nbsp; The dead guy might not have seen anything (it was dark, he was struck from behind, the killer was invisible, the killer used a ranged weapon or spell).&nbsp; The dead guy might not have seen what he thought he saw (the killer was wearing a disguise).&nbsp; What the dead guy saw might not be immediately useful (he was killed by someone he didn't know).&nbsp; The dead guy might be lying (the real killer is someone the murder victim wants to protect).&nbsp; The dead guy might be insane or traumatized and any clue he provides is cryptic.&nbsp; The dead guy might hate the PC's guts and simply be difficult.&nbsp; The dead guy might now be a spectre, and more interested in eating the PC's soul than cooperating with a murder investigation.&nbsp; I could probably go through a whole lot of different scenarios before I tried, &quot;The dead guy's jaw is missing and his throat is slashed.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; I understand you basic point about 3e RAW, especially with things like 'Detect Evil' being potentially disruptive but I don't it is that different from setting up any mystery.&nbsp; If the detectives have forensic tools, then you are going to have to take that into account when planning out the mystery whether CSI: New York or CSI: Greyhawk.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 4668135, member: 4937"] Yeah, but isn't that basically true of any detective story? I mean, suppose that I was running a modern CSI campaign and the killer's fingerprints were on every murder weapon, and the victims blood could be found on the suspects clothes? If in the next session the killer carefully wiped away finger prints, incinerated or threw away clothes, and even left false clues, you wouldn't say, "Hey, that's no fair. You nerfed all of my I WIN buttons!". No, you'd say, "This is a typical episode of CSI." Naturally, if you expect the investigation to be difficult, then its going to involve a mystery where the killer has been careful to destroy evidence, leave false clues, or frame up a likely suspect who happens to be innocent. That's just the standard trope in one of the genera. I would consider 'Speak with the Dead' to be interviewing witnesses. Like any witness, the dead guy doesn't necessarily need to be trustworthy. The dead guy might not have seen anything (it was dark, he was struck from behind, the killer was invisible, the killer used a ranged weapon or spell). The dead guy might not have seen what he thought he saw (the killer was wearing a disguise). What the dead guy saw might not be immediately useful (he was killed by someone he didn't know). The dead guy might be lying (the real killer is someone the murder victim wants to protect). The dead guy might be insane or traumatized and any clue he provides is cryptic. The dead guy might hate the PC's guts and simply be difficult. The dead guy might now be a spectre, and more interested in eating the PC's soul than cooperating with a murder investigation. I could probably go through a whole lot of different scenarios before I tried, "The dead guy's jaw is missing and his throat is slashed." I understand you basic point about 3e RAW, especially with things like 'Detect Evil' being potentially disruptive but I don't it is that different from setting up any mystery. If the detectives have forensic tools, then you are going to have to take that into account when planning out the mystery whether CSI: New York or CSI: Greyhawk. [/QUOTE]

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