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<blockquote data-quote="Wik" data-source="post: 4668634" data-attributes="member: 40177">Two things:&nbsp; 1)&nbsp; You seem to be taking things a bit personally.&nbsp; This isn't an edition war, though it seems to be heading that way unfortunately.&nbsp; 2)&nbsp; I think we're allowed to be annoyed at what is an &quot;error in the math&quot; - it more or less shows that something like Skill Challenges didn't get nearly the same amount of attention as something like combat, which is sort of the point of all this.&nbsp; Skills are a big part of this discussion, but they aren't the only part.&nbsp; Another big part on why I don't think 4e works as well outside of combat has to do with abilities themselves.&nbsp; In earlier editions, while abilities had combat uses, a creative player could often use them in non-combat situations.&nbsp; You could, for example, use Burning Hands to burn through a rope, or Reduce to get through a tight squeeze.&nbsp; In 4e, unfortunately, powers are pretty much all mechanics, and it is a bit harder to use the powers in non-combat situations (not impossible, but spotty at best).&nbsp; Can I, for example, use Ray of Frost to freeze water?&nbsp; Can my ranger use Armour Splinter to knock off an ally's armour (maybe the armour is cursed, or something)?&nbsp; You can point to the stunt rules in the DMG (the famous &quot;page 42&quot;), but that's not what I'm getting at.&nbsp; Can I use my powers (something like 30% of the PHB, and easily the biggest part of my character) to do things not explicitly detailed in their description?&nbsp; Or, more to the point, can I use my powers outside of combat?&nbsp; The answer, for most of them, is no.&nbsp; Even utilities are often aimed primarily towards combat functionality.Really, a 4e character outside of a fight is not much different from a BECMI character outside of a combat.&nbsp; The 4e character has some skills that weren't present in BECMI, but beyond that... not much difference.&nbsp; The BECMI character probably has more magic items useful outside of a fight, though.&nbsp; The BECMI character may have spells and scrolls useful outside of a fight, while the 4e will have rituals, so I'll put them on even grounds there.What I'm saying is, if you want a game with interesting mechanical details outside of a fight, 4e is probably not your game.&nbsp; Most characters will look too much alike outside of the fray.&nbsp; 3e does not have this problem - it suffers instead from a divide between combat and non-combat characters (a fighter is built entirely for combat, while a bard is pretty bad at combat, but great outside of it;&nbsp; in a fight, one player will be awesome, while outside of a fight, he'll be bored and useless while the other character shines).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Wik, post: 4668634, member: 40177"] Two things: 1) You seem to be taking things a bit personally. This isn't an edition war, though it seems to be heading that way unfortunately. 2) I think we're allowed to be annoyed at what is an "error in the math" - it more or less shows that something like Skill Challenges didn't get nearly the same amount of attention as something like combat, which is sort of the point of all this. Skills are a big part of this discussion, but they aren't the only part. Another big part on why I don't think 4e works as well outside of combat has to do with abilities themselves. In earlier editions, while abilities had combat uses, a creative player could often use them in non-combat situations. You could, for example, use Burning Hands to burn through a rope, or Reduce to get through a tight squeeze. In 4e, unfortunately, powers are pretty much all mechanics, and it is a bit harder to use the powers in non-combat situations (not impossible, but spotty at best). Can I, for example, use Ray of Frost to freeze water? Can my ranger use Armour Splinter to knock off an ally's armour (maybe the armour is cursed, or something)? You can point to the stunt rules in the DMG (the famous "page 42"), but that's not what I'm getting at. Can I use my powers (something like 30% of the PHB, and easily the biggest part of my character) to do things not explicitly detailed in their description? Or, more to the point, [i]can I use my powers outside of combat[/i]? The answer, for most of them, is no. Even utilities are often aimed primarily towards combat functionality. Really, a 4e character outside of a fight is not much different from a BECMI character outside of a combat. The 4e character has some skills that weren't present in BECMI, but beyond that... not much difference. The BECMI character probably has more magic items useful outside of a fight, though. The BECMI character may have spells and scrolls useful outside of a fight, while the 4e will have rituals, so I'll put them on even grounds there. What I'm saying is, if you want a game with interesting [i]mechanical[/i] details outside of a fight, 4e is probably not your game. Most characters will look too much alike outside of the fray. 3e does not have this problem - it suffers instead from a divide between combat and non-combat characters (a fighter is built entirely for combat, while a bard is pretty bad at combat, but great outside of it; in a fight, one player will be awesome, while outside of a fight, he'll be bored and useless while the other character shines). [/QUOTE]

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