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<blockquote data-quote="Spatula" data-source="post: 4669675" data-attributes="member: 2198">How?&nbsp; That's not a rogue (or thief) class feature.I missed that class ability, too, I suppose.Well, that one at least is no longer possible.Not all skills are appropriate to all challenges.&nbsp; And utimately it's up to you as the DM to decide what does and does not contribute to the success of a given task.&nbsp; Different characters are trained in different skills, and they won't all be applicable in every situation.&nbsp; I don't see how the situation has really changed since 3e, except that you no longer have to micromanage your skill points.&nbsp; If you don't like the skill challenge system, don't use it and go back to whatever you were doing before.You could say the same about picking up a level of wizard and/or cleric in 3e, or putting enough ranks into UMD to reliably use wands &amp; scrolls.&nbsp; Learning rituals has a cost - you have to be trained in one of two skills (which costs a feat for the non-caster types), you have to spend a(nother) feat, and then you have to buy or find rituals.&nbsp; And then various rituals require different skill checks on top of that.&nbsp; So saying there's no real difference in what two characters can contribute is plainly false.&nbsp; It's like saying if you had two wizards (mages, magic-users) in the party there'd be no real variation between them (which might be somewhat true in 4e - or at least you'd have to work harder to differentiate them - but certainly wasn't in earlier editions).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Spatula, post: 4669675, member: 2198"] How? That's not a rogue (or thief) class feature. I missed that class ability, too, I suppose. Well, that one at least is no longer possible. Not all skills are appropriate to all challenges. And utimately it's up to you as the DM to decide what does and does not contribute to the success of a given task. Different characters are trained in different skills, and they won't all be applicable in every situation. I don't see how the situation has really changed since 3e, except that you no longer have to micromanage your skill points. If you don't like the skill challenge system, don't use it and go back to whatever you were doing before. You could say the same about picking up a level of wizard and/or cleric in 3e, or putting enough ranks into UMD to reliably use wands & scrolls. Learning rituals has a cost - you have to be trained in one of two skills (which costs a feat for the non-caster types), you have to spend a(nother) feat, and then you have to buy or find rituals. And then various rituals require different skill checks on top of that. So saying there's no real difference in what two characters can contribute is plainly false. It's like saying if you had two wizards (mages, magic-users) in the party there'd be no real variation between them (which might be somewhat true in 4e - or at least you'd have to work harder to differentiate them - but certainly wasn't in earlier editions). [/QUOTE]

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