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<blockquote data-quote="Spatula" data-source="post: 4669854" data-attributes="member: 2198">Okay, but what's changed?&nbsp; Rogues are by default good at hiding and spying (Stealth and Thievery).&nbsp; The class' skill-based utility powers make rogues even better at such things.&nbsp; The only other PHB class that has Stealth as a class skill is the ranger, who also had those abilities in 3e (and to a lesser extent in 2e).&nbsp; Sure, anyone else can blow a feat and become stealthy, but then anyone could blow cross-class skill ranks or take a level of rogue and get the same thing in 3e.&nbsp; The rogue and ranger will still be better because of their DEX score.Regarding Knowledge skills in 3e, not bloody likely unless the rogue is multiclassed with wizard or bard, since they're all cross-class (except for knowledge-local in 3.5).&nbsp; Plus you need most of your points for the critical rogue skills.Ah, ok, I see what you meant.&nbsp; There's a lot of overlap with wizard spells there, plus there are divinations that wizards have but that clerics do not.&nbsp; While the cleric has the edge, it's hardly a protected schtick.&nbsp; Both wizards and clerics can &quot;reveal imposters&quot; in any edition.&nbsp; In 4e, both have free access to divinatory rituals, the vast majority of which are Religion-based (a skill that the cleric gets for free).I don't see how this matters since the DM is the one designing the challenges (or tweaking published challenges).&nbsp; If you want a solid yes/no determination on which skills can or can't be used, then it's part of your design.&nbsp; The challenges are just a framework that DMs can build actual encounters on top of, similar to the combat encounter toolbox.&nbsp; Obviously it's not as well developed, but then it's only been around since the 3e UA.&nbsp; And it's more than we've had in the past.Charm spells are gone.&nbsp; Detect alignment spells are gone (and good riddance).&nbsp; That's pretty much it.You keep asserting this but I can't find any actual substance to it, other than a dislike for your strawman every-skill-applies skill challenges (Derren? what have you done with KM?!).&nbsp; The whole &quot;anyone can do any particular task&quot; thing was just as true with 3e's flexible character creation.I'm not sure I get your meaning with the &quot;second wizard&quot; comment - wizards had a lot of possible variance between spell selection and specialization in 2e &amp; 3e.&nbsp; Then you get to other customization options: race &amp; multiclassing, kits &amp; NWPs, skills &amp; feats.&nbsp; If you meant just in 4e, there's definitely less room to maneuver because there are a lot fewer spells/rituals and a lack of good caster feats; this is a big flaw with the 4e PHB IMO.&nbsp; It feels like a primer that was meant to have addons (which of course it was) whereas previous PHBs were much more complete.&nbsp; But after Arcane Power is out, presumably the wizard will be &quot;complete&quot; and will have a lot more options to seperate oneself from the pack.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Spatula, post: 4669854, member: 2198"] Okay, but what's changed? Rogues are by default good at hiding and spying (Stealth and Thievery). The class' skill-based utility powers make rogues even better at such things. The only other PHB class that has Stealth as a class skill is the ranger, who also had those abilities in 3e (and to a lesser extent in 2e). Sure, anyone else can blow a feat and become stealthy, but then anyone could blow cross-class skill ranks or take a level of rogue and get the same thing in 3e. The rogue and ranger will still be better because of their DEX score. Regarding Knowledge skills in 3e, not bloody likely unless the rogue is multiclassed with wizard or bard, since they're all cross-class (except for knowledge-local in 3.5). Plus you need most of your points for the critical rogue skills. Ah, ok, I see what you meant. There's a lot of overlap with wizard spells there, plus there are divinations that wizards have but that clerics do not. While the cleric has the edge, it's hardly a protected schtick. Both wizards and clerics can "reveal imposters" in any edition. In 4e, both have free access to divinatory rituals, the vast majority of which are Religion-based (a skill that the cleric gets for free). I don't see how this matters since the DM is the one designing the challenges (or tweaking published challenges). If you want a solid yes/no determination on which skills can or can't be used, then it's part of your design. The challenges are just a framework that DMs can build actual encounters on top of, similar to the combat encounter toolbox. Obviously it's not as well developed, but then it's only been around since the 3e UA. And it's more than we've had in the past. Charm spells are gone. Detect alignment spells are gone (and good riddance). That's pretty much it. You keep asserting this but I can't find any actual substance to it, other than a dislike for your strawman every-skill-applies skill challenges (Derren? what have you done with KM?!). The whole "anyone can do any particular task" thing was just as true with 3e's flexible character creation. I'm not sure I get your meaning with the "second wizard" comment - wizards had a lot of possible variance between spell selection and specialization in 2e & 3e. Then you get to other customization options: race & multiclassing, kits & NWPs, skills & feats. If you meant just in 4e, there's definitely less room to maneuver because there are a lot fewer spells/rituals and a lack of good caster feats; this is a big flaw with the 4e PHB IMO. It feels like a primer that was meant to have addons (which of course it was) whereas previous PHBs were much more complete. But after Arcane Power is out, presumably the wizard will be "complete" and will have a lot more options to seperate oneself from the pack. [/QUOTE]

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