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<blockquote data-quote="Thasmodious" data-source="post: 4670197" data-attributes="member: 63272">My problem is you keep saying things like that.&nbsp; You want 4e to do more and you argue it does less.&nbsp; You wants noncombat things more focused on.&nbsp; But where was the focus on noncombat skill use in 3e?&nbsp; 4e has a system for handling noncombat scenes ranging from a few seconds to months of game time in skill challenges.&nbsp; This system is used to play out social scenes and exploration scenes, among others.&nbsp; What was 3es complex, detailed, and focused social encounter system?&nbsp;&nbsp; It was a make a diplomacy/bluff check.What was 3e's complex detailed system for dealing with exploration?&nbsp; A survival check and a couple paragraphs on getting lost. Where was 1e's complex, detailed system for doing anything noncombat?They weren't there.&nbsp; 4e has a more complex, detailed, and cohesive system for noncombat encounters than any previous edition has.&nbsp; An adaptable system that gives you plenty of freedom combined with the weight of character based mechanical support.&nbsp; The DM has to learn one system to cover practically any noncombat situation and its easy to apply on the fly.Your positions and expectations are out of whack.&nbsp; You say 4e is worse than previous editions because it doesn't focus on these things.&nbsp; But neither did the other editions.&nbsp; Only in comparison to game system actually built to focus on these things to the exclusion of others do your vague criticisms hold water.&nbsp; But we aren't talking about other systems, we are talking previous editions of D&amp;D.&nbsp; It's like you have a hazy memory of prior systems and imagine that the things we did in those games were supported by awesome rules that you can't seem to recall that have somehow just slipped away and covered their tracks like an old school druid.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Thasmodious, post: 4670197, member: 63272"] My problem is you keep saying things like that. You want 4e to do more and you argue it does less. You wants noncombat things more focused on. But where was the focus on noncombat skill use in 3e? 4e has a system for handling noncombat scenes ranging from a few seconds to months of game time in skill challenges. This system is used to play out social scenes and exploration scenes, among others. What was 3es complex, detailed, and focused social encounter system? It was a make a diplomacy/bluff check. What was 3e's complex detailed system for dealing with exploration? A survival check and a couple paragraphs on getting lost. Where was 1e's complex, detailed system for doing anything noncombat? They weren't there. 4e has a more complex, detailed, and cohesive system for noncombat encounters than any previous edition has. An adaptable system that gives you plenty of freedom combined with the weight of character based mechanical support. The DM has to learn one system to cover practically any noncombat situation and its easy to apply on the fly. Your positions and expectations are out of whack. You say 4e is worse than previous editions because it doesn't focus on these things. But neither did the other editions. Only in comparison to game system actually built to focus on these things to the exclusion of others do your vague criticisms hold water. But we aren't talking about other systems, we are talking previous editions of D&D. It's like you have a hazy memory of prior systems and imagine that the things we did in those games were supported by awesome rules that you can't seem to recall that have somehow just slipped away and covered their tracks like an old school druid. [/QUOTE]

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