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Message: <blockquote data-quote="RodneyThompson" data-source="post: 4670338" data-attributes="member: 3594">I feel as though your list ignores the following class-specific powers:Cleric======Divine FortuneHoly LanternAstral RefugeKnights of Unyielding ValorClarion Call of the Astral SeaCloud ChariotGood OmensPaladin==========Astral SpeechOne Heart, One MindRanger==========Crucial AdviceSkilled CompanionForest GhostRogue=======Fleeting GhostGreat LeapMaster of DeceitMob MentalityNimble ClimbCertain FreedomFoil the LockHide in Plain SightCloud JumpHide from the LightWarlock=======Beguiling TongueShadow VeilDark One's Own LuckAmbassador ImpShadow FormEye of the WarlockWarlord=======Bolt of GeniusWizard=======CantripsFeather FallJumpDisguise SelfInvisibility/GreaterLevitateFly/Mass FlyMordenkainen's MansionI compiled that list just from PHB classes. It's all the powers I could find that had very easy to imagine non-combat uses. More specifically, I looked for things that could function inside a skill challenge, but I didn't limit myself to that. I have to admit, I think it would be much more exciting to run your CSI Eberron game in 4E, not only for how skill challenges work but also thanks to some of the things that weren't carried over from earlier editions. I know, blasphemy, right? Who can think that leaving things out could be a good thing?I do. I kind of feel like a lot of Kamikaze Midget's arguments really boil down to the lack of charm and divination spells in 4E. I think this is further tied into the changes in the alignment system. Spells like detect evil and zone of truth gave you very concrete knowledge; they told you "this guy is lying" or "this guy is evil," and that was the end of it. On the one hand, that can be seen as part of the "progress" of the non-combat side of the game. I found out this guy was lying, I succeeded in moving the story along.However, I personally much prefer the ambiguity of not knowing these things. Too often I feel like my players fell back on charm person rather than actually try and convince the NPC to help them. Too often I felt like I needed to give every villain mind blank so he could interact with the party paladin without setting him off. I like the fact that the only thing I have to go on in knowing whether or not the guy I suspect is actually guilty of committing a crime is through the facts I gathered, through skill use and occasionally the use of a power or ritual. The key distinction, I think, is that those spells that got left out of 4E were the thing you used to get the result you want. I need to know if this guy is evil, so I cast detect evil and I find out. 4E uses powers and rituals to facilitate getting the result you want, but they are not the actual thing that gives you the result. You still have to rely on skills and, yes, roleplaying. It sounds like KM is lamenting the ability to use spells to get a direct result, as opposed to having them by a tweak you use to increase your chances of success. While I don't think using a spell to get your results is always bad, the ability to do it reliably and constantly (think about how low-level some of those spells were) throws a monkey wrench in a lot of plots. To steal your CSI: Eberron idea, I find it a lot more interesting when I have to go to the suspected serial killer's house, interview him, let the rogue pick around for clues, etc. instead of just casting detect evil on him. As a player, I like that my character has suspicions about people that turn out to be wrong, and I like that it doesn't require the DM to jump through spellcasting hoops to explain why none of us knew that the noble ally we had was actually a demon-worshipping doppelganger the whole time. Furthermore, I like the fact that the fighter who spends a feat has a chance to contribute to the process of uncovering said doppelganger's true colors through a skill challenge. I will be the first person to say I think we should offer more mechanical support for skill challenges. I think it's a great idea, and could live in utility powers, rituals, feats, class features, and a number of other places. I don't think that means that you can ignore the fact that powers, rituals, and skill challenges offer different ways of playing out non-combat scenes. You and I may want more of those things, but they are there, and as the game grows older more stuff will appear. I know the argument is that since they weren't there in the first place then they are obviously "second priority" but I don't think that, even if it were true, that would necessarily mean they weren't a priority at all. I guess all I'm saying is: I think 4E lets me do non-combat encounters with ease (thanks to the organization of skill challenges) while still offering some opportunities for characters to shine as individuals.</blockquote>

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