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<blockquote data-quote="Wik" data-source="post: 4670466" data-attributes="member: 40177">Intimidate is primarily a non-combat skill - demoralizing enemies was a waste of time, unless you had a feat.&nbsp; Bluff DOES have combat uses, which I forgot about.&nbsp; Haven't played 3e in a while.&nbsp; And Heal?&nbsp; Doesn't really do much in 95% of most D&amp;D fights I've seen.&nbsp; As for the mount, most paladins I've seen dismount before getting into a fight.&nbsp; In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a 3e mount used in a combat. Ever.&nbsp; I guess our experiences differ.&nbsp; When I listed my non-combat powers per class, I was trying to only show powers that were almost entirely useful outside of a fight.&nbsp; That's why I didn't put in things like Shapechange (since a lot of players used it as a combat thing), or many of the rogue evasion powers.&nbsp; Or the ranger's hiding powers.&nbsp; I was just trying to make a point - that classes tended to have more in the way of non-combat powers available to them.You can mention that 4e characters have powers that have non-combat uses... and you're right.&nbsp; But they are usually pretty limited (the lantern grants some light, doesn't need to be held, and gives a perception bonus... but it doesn't encourage too much creative play.&nbsp; I can't use it to gonzo things with it... it's &quot;just&quot; a lamp).&nbsp; Another point, a bit on the side, is that if you and I make the exact same character, but you choose a power that is more &quot;non-combat&quot;, and I choose one more for combat, we're goign to be unbalanced in a sense - you'll be slightly better in a fight (which is, in my experience, 75% of the game), while I'll have a neat power outside of a fight.&nbsp; Add those up over time, and you can get the same situation as the 3e bard - someone who is balanced much more towards the outside of combat then the inside.But that's a side topic, and maybe better left to another thread.&nbsp; Feel free to fork it if you'd like.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Wik, post: 4670466, member: 40177"] Intimidate is primarily a non-combat skill - demoralizing enemies was a waste of time, unless you had a feat. Bluff DOES have combat uses, which I forgot about. Haven't played 3e in a while. And Heal? Doesn't really do much in 95% of most D&D fights I've seen. As for the mount, most paladins I've seen dismount before getting into a fight. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a 3e mount used in a combat. Ever. I guess our experiences differ. When I listed my non-combat powers per class, I was trying to only show powers that were almost entirely useful outside of a fight. That's why I didn't put in things like Shapechange (since a lot of players used it as a combat thing), or many of the rogue evasion powers. Or the ranger's hiding powers. I was just trying to make a point - that classes tended to have more in the way of non-combat powers available to them. You can mention that 4e characters have powers that have non-combat uses... and you're right. But they are usually pretty limited (the lantern grants some light, doesn't need to be held, and gives a perception bonus... but it doesn't encourage too much creative play. I can't use it to gonzo things with it... it's "just" a lamp). Another point, a bit on the side, is that if you and I make the exact same character, but you choose a power that is more "non-combat", and I choose one more for combat, we're goign to be unbalanced in a sense - you'll be slightly better in a fight (which is, in my experience, 75% of the game), while I'll have a neat power outside of a fight. Add those up over time, and you can get the same situation as the 3e bard - someone who is balanced much more towards the outside of combat then the inside. But that's a side topic, and maybe better left to another thread. Feel free to fork it if you'd like. [/QUOTE]

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