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<blockquote data-quote="Dragonblade" data-source="post: 4670803" data-attributes="member: 2804">Regarding skill systems, 1e essentially had none. 2e had the crude non-weapon proficiency system. Only 3e and 4e have a fully developed skill system. Its debatable whether the Trained/Untrained 4e model, or skill point 3e model is better, but functionally the systems are the same. Its purely personal preference over which method is better. But 4e does offer the mechanical framework for the skill challenge system which 3e does not.Therefore, with the addition of the skill challenge framework, 4e does offer more in a skill system than any prior edition of D&amp;D. This is a material fact.Regarding character options and customization, a lot of class abilities such as Rage, Trap Sense, Evasion etc. either don't make sense in the new rules, or have been folded into the 4e feat and powers system instead of being prescribed abilities built into a class. The feats, powers, and rituals that 4e offers at every level for every class exceeds or matches the character options available in all prior editions of D&amp;D.&nbsp; The only classes that even come close to the sheer amount of options available to a 4e character are the 3e fighter, 3e spellcasters, or 3e multi-classed characters. 1e/2e classes are not even close.Really, the only thing at issue is whether open-ended abilities are good or not. For example, is Charm Person broken? Is it a valid tactic to get information from an NPC, or is it an end-run around the DM's plot and a crutch for players? Purely a matter of personal opinion but an interesting discussion.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Dragonblade, post: 4670803, member: 2804"] Regarding skill systems, 1e essentially had none. 2e had the crude non-weapon proficiency system. Only 3e and 4e have a fully developed skill system. Its debatable whether the Trained/Untrained 4e model, or skill point 3e model is better, but functionally the systems are the same. Its purely personal preference over which method is better. But 4e does offer the mechanical framework for the skill challenge system which 3e does not. Therefore, with the addition of the skill challenge framework, 4e does offer more in a skill system than any prior edition of D&D. This is a material fact. Regarding character options and customization, a lot of class abilities such as Rage, Trap Sense, Evasion etc. either don't make sense in the new rules, or have been folded into the 4e feat and powers system instead of being prescribed abilities built into a class. The feats, powers, and rituals that 4e offers at every level for every class exceeds or matches the character options available in all prior editions of D&D. The only classes that even come close to the sheer amount of options available to a 4e character are the 3e fighter, 3e spellcasters, or 3e multi-classed characters. 1e/2e classes are not even close. Really, the only thing at issue is whether open-ended abilities are good or not. For example, is Charm Person broken? Is it a valid tactic to get information from an NPC, or is it an end-run around the DM's plot and a crutch for players? Purely a matter of personal opinion but an interesting discussion. [/QUOTE]

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