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<blockquote data-quote="Spatula" data-source="post: 4671279" data-attributes="member: 2198">I think the disconnect here is that ProfessorPain is after character variation as an end unto itself, whereas you and the others who have tried to reason with him see the goal as character effectiveness instead.As an example from our current game, my ranger/psion has 4 or 5 ranks in Hide &amp; Move Silently.&nbsp; They're effectively wasted points - even with magic stealth items, I can't even come close to Leopold's abilities in that regard.&nbsp; So when it comes time for scouting, I mindlink the group and sit back while Leopold heads out to get the lay of the land.&nbsp; But I still value those points for what they say about my character - he's a hunter, a silent killer, a vengeful ghost in the rugged border regions of Riedra.&nbsp; Of course the mechanics don't really back this up (a handful of ranks doesn't make one very stealthy except perhaps against peons, who aren't worthy of screen time with us at this point), but they make me feel better.Incidentally, I would have increased those skills, but: not enough skill points. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown&nbsp; &nbsp; :("&nbsp; data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" />&nbsp; A persistant problem in 3e, unfortunately.Of course, in an ideal game, my character concept would be fully realized and I would actually be able to hang with the party rogue on scouting expeditions.&nbsp; By say... using the 4e skill system and taking Skill Training: Stealth.&nbsp; That way I get to play the character I want and be good at it (even if I'm slightly worse at it, since I don't have Leopold's insane DEX).&nbsp; Best of both worlds, IMO, but some people value the process over the result.&nbsp; Showing them that your results are better isn't going to have much impact because that's not what they're after.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Spatula, post: 4671279, member: 2198"] I think the disconnect here is that ProfessorPain is after character variation as an end unto itself, whereas you and the others who have tried to reason with him see the goal as character effectiveness instead. As an example from our current game, my ranger/psion has 4 or 5 ranks in Hide & Move Silently. They're effectively wasted points - even with magic stealth items, I can't even come close to Leopold's abilities in that regard. So when it comes time for scouting, I [i]mindlink[/i] the group and sit back while Leopold heads out to get the lay of the land. But I still value those points for what they say about my character - he's a hunter, a silent killer, a vengeful ghost in the rugged border regions of Riedra. Of course the mechanics don't really back this up (a handful of ranks doesn't make one very stealthy except perhaps against peons, who aren't worthy of screen time with us at this point), but they make me feel better. Incidentally, I would have increased those skills, but: not enough skill points. :( A persistant problem in 3e, unfortunately. Of course, in an ideal game, my character concept would be fully realized and I would actually be able to hang with the party rogue on scouting expeditions. By say... using the 4e skill system and taking Skill Training: Stealth. That way I get to play the character I want [b]and[/b] be good at it (even if I'm slightly worse at it, since I don't have Leopold's insane DEX). Best of both worlds, IMO, but some people value the process over the result. Showing them that your results are better isn't going to have much impact because that's not what they're after. [/QUOTE]

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