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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 4671511" data-attributes="member: 2067">I'm going to jump over most of this with the general idea that Wik (and others) are basically making the same points I would. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I did want to tease out this, because I think it's illustrative of the difference in focus:Compare that lantern with even the lowly light spell (which that lantern is basically the equivalent of in 4e). It's basic purpose was pretty clear (you use it if you don't have a torch), but 2e included rules for using it to blind enemies (casting it on their eyes!), and in 3e, the idea of using it to negate darkvision was present.In those games, that spell was a tool -- it generated some effect, and how you used that effect was up to you (fireball to start campfires, etc.)In 4e, that spell is an effect -- it basically generates that effect. The tool used to accomplish that is mostly up to you (making it easy to reskin, and also very clear in its effect). Anything else is not given real support.In 3e, when you cast fireball, you made a fireball, and the spell described the effects that fireball would have in certain circumstances (but, it was implied, by no means all).In 4e, when you cast a fireball, you simply deal a kind damage in an area. This is clear and unambiguous, but it's also not much of a launching point for imagination; it's just a mechanical effect.It's that Simulationist/Gamist divide. And I'd say I'm with Wik when he says if he wanted pure gamism, he'd go play Xbox. A D&D that doesn't focus on what D&D can do that Xbox CAN'T do is, overall, less useful to me.I'm OK with 4e. I play and DM 4e. I'll probably end up doing some 4e design sooner or later (I can't resist tinkering with whatever I'm playing with). But that doesn't mean that 4e couldn't do better in many areas.One of the areas that 4e really and honestly could do better in is in providing more variety and strategy in the rules for solving noncombat challenges.It has the potential to do better than any edition before it for that. It just depends on if the designers have any interest in doing that.</blockquote>

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