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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cbas_10" data-source="post: 3817425" data-attributes="member: 55767">It depends on how we want to define D&D....The short answer to the question of whether or not 4E feels like D&D......No.However, what is "THE D&D" we are comparing to?  We cannot compare it to a specific edition of D&D's rules, since each edition has made significant changes compared to the previous.  Some of us recognize 1st Ed. as "our" original D&D, some see 2nd Ed. as our original, and so on.  So...what "feels" like D&D?  The adventure, the intrigue, the risk, the rewards, the devious villains, the magical artifacts, the mystery, the personalities, and most of all.....the Options.  Fighters use weapons and tricks to defeat or annihilate enemies, Rogues provide useful support in less scrupulous areas (even if they happen to have scruples), Wizards grow from minor tricksters to powerful magicians, and clerics act as agents of their gods.  Surrounding these general statements are the hordes of options, feats, player-preferred skill choices, and toolkits of monster stats/templates/classlevels that allow for truly unique antagonists.The game setting does not need to be as detailed and intricate as the Forgotten Realms, but one should be available that gives the players and DM a feel of the world the fictional characters are living in.  To "feel like D&D", I think the players should know about strange and mundane things like the kingdom's proximity to the giants of the northern mountains or that the elves far to the south founded the arts of crafting mithril.The rules of the game are not really important when I think about what they SHOULD include.  However, the rules are important when I want my games to have the versatility to do what I want.  Sure, we all house rule a little bit here and there.  But I'm too busy with life, family, and work to do much re-tooling and redesigning.  Some days call for simple and straight-forward rules, and other days call for more complex options.Thus, I'll point out a couple of the most important reasons that 3.5 feels the most like D&D to me.I played some 1st ed. D&D, a LOT of 2nd., and a LOT of 3.0/3.5...3.5 was the best so far because it opened up the avenues of possibility so that I could tell my stories without bending, breaking, or creating rules.So....why do I say that 4E does not seem like D&D to me?  Character roles and monster roles bug me.  Don't tell me that my fighter is supposed to be a leader or defender or whatever.  Don't tell me my rogue is supposed to be an acrobatic sneak attacker or anything.  I like my rogue who used his skills and feats to be a master manipulator and con-artist.  And clerics could be across the board, seeming like nearly any sort of person, depending on the god they worship.  Additionally, things are simplifying....a lot.  Maybe too much.  I admit that character creation can be a bear to new players.  But that is why you have a circle of friends and fellow players.....to help each other out.  After character creation, most of it runs pretty smoothly.  And...I never figured out what was all that complex about grappling (unless the players tried to reflect realism too much....in that case, any game will break down and trip all over itself).I could go on, but this is not supposed to be a big 3.5 vs 4E topic.  I'm going to keep reading and wait for 4E.  3E was such a phenomonal jump in fun from 2E that they might just capture the magic again.  But for now....all I see are game crunch tidbits that remind me of a video game-transferred-to-paper.  Where is the soul of the game?  Where is the spirit and essence that Inspires?</blockquote>

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