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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Thasmodious" data-source="post: 4718566" data-attributes="member: 63272">First, I understand you are not attacking 4e.  You made a statement, I disagree with it.  It's as simple as that.  Now, though, you are backtracking away from that statement, saying you are just looking objectively at the rules.  If you want to compare D&D (any edition) to WoD, yes, WoD supports a much more noncombat approach.  So do many games.  That's not what I responded to and you are being disingenuous when you imply that it is.  This is what you said originally, that prompted my response:I responded to your assertion that 4e goes further away from non-combat than other editions and believe I've made the case for my position quite strongly.  Which is why you've moved away from that and are now claiming that the discussion is about an objection evaluation of solely the rules of this edition, in a vacuum, without regard to any other edition.  That isn't the discussion I initiated.  Please don't try to re-frame the discussion in the middle.  Basic D&D outright tells you the game is about killing monsters and taking stuff.  Older editions have very little, if any, mechanical support for roleplaying and often awkward support, via numerous, entirely different, subsystems for aspects of exploration, overcoming non-combat challenges and the like.  4e supports all of that and quite elegantly, with simple, streamlined rules.  If you now want to claim that D&D doesn't support roleplaying or noncombat issues through the game rules as well as some other specific systems - hey, that's absolutely true, you will get no argument from me.  D&D definitely has a focus on combat and dungeons.  It always has and hopefully always will.  That's the game I want.  That's the game that has kept D&D on top of the heap since there was a heap. But claiming that 4e is behind the curve of other editions of D&D in supporting noncombat issues, whether RP, exploration, skill based challenges, social encounters, is just not something that I find objectively supportable at all.</blockquote>

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