Does a swim speed let you five-foot step in choppy water?

[Noumenon]

The Lair of the White Salamander adventure has choppy water four feet deep that counts as difficult terrain (4 squares/move) for the PCs. What about the salamander that has a swim speed? Can it five-foot step back and use a spell-like ability?

 

[Kask]

(4 squares/move) for the PCs.

Are you playing 4.0?

 

[Noumenon]

Are you playing 4.0?

At first I thought "No, check the forum," but that's actually a good question. I am not super familiar with movement in difficult terrain in 3.5, so I thought Lair of the White Salamander was just restating a rule when it said

the water is kept violently in motion by the power of the (spoiler)... It costs 4 squares of movement for wading characters to enter a square of churning water, and tumbling is impossible.

I know deep bogs cost 4 squares of movement, so it didn't stick out. Does it make a difference? If it was merely difficult enough to cost two squares, would your swim speed let you take a five-foot step then? Hmm... when I put it that way, it sounds like a swim speed would be as strong as a druid's Woodland Stride underwater.

The adventure also said the choppy water, though only four feet high, counted as rough water for swim checks (DC 15). In case that matters.

 

[Kask]

I know deep bogs cost 4 squares of movement, so it didn't stick out. Does it make a difference?

4.0 & 3.X use different movement systems. In 3.x you measure movement in distance. In 4.0 it is measured in geometric shapes...

So, you should post the question the 4.0 rules forum.

 

[Vegepygmy]

In 3.5, the answer to the question is yes. PHB, page 144:

"You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed. For example, if you don't have a climb speed listed, you can't use climbing to make a 5-foot step. Similarly, you can't take a 5-foot step when swimming unless you have a listed swim speed."

The choppy water (DC 15) would most likely be irrelevant, as any creature with a natural swim speed has a +8 racial bonus on swim checks and can take 10 even if distracted or endangered.

 

[Alzrius]

As far as 3.5 goes, the SRD states that a creature walking along the bottom of a space filled with water has "firm footing" (without a swim speed or similar effect), which reduces his movement rate to half.

It doesn't expressly say what happens for creatures with a swim speed in that type of situation (e.g. where they're walking on the bottom of a watery area, and the water isn't over their head), but it seems reasonable to say that they'd get their full movement rate, since that's what they'd get when fully submerged (or when walking, if they also have a land speed). Given that, they'd almost certainly get a 5-foot step when making a full attack action.

 

[Noumenon]

I was asking about 3.5, for the record. I know even less about 4th edition movement rules so I thought maybe this "4 squares of movement per" sounded like a 4E rule that I'd posted in the wrong forum.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Yes, a creature with a swim speed could take a 5-foot step in "choppy water" terrain, by core RAW. (This is probably covered explicitly somewhere in Stormwrack, and I wouldn't be surprised if the answer went the other way.)

That said, if I were playing a swim-speed PC, and you as DM told me, for example, "It's difficult terrain because it's water, and it's doubly difficult because the water is choppy, so it counts as difficult for you; the choppiness affects you but the depth of water doesn't," I'd find that perfectly persuasive.

(3.5, BTW, uses both "distance in feet" and "number of squares" to measure movement, for the poster who made the distinction between 3E and 4E.)

 

[irdeggman]

Yes, a creature with a swim speed could take a 5-foot step in "choppy water" terrain, by core RAW. (This is probably covered explicitly somewhere in Stormwrack, and I wouldn't be surprised if the answer went the other way.)

That said, if I were playing a swim-speed PC, and you as DM told me, for example, "It's difficult terrain because it's water, and it's doubly difficult because the water is choppy, so it counts as difficult for you; the choppiness affects you but the depth of water doesn't," I'd find that perfectly persuasive.

Well the RAW on 5 ft steps is that you can't take a 5 foot step in difficult terrain.

You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don't have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (a single square). In such a case, you may spend a full-round action to move 5 feet.. . Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it's not, and thus you provoke attacks of opportunity normally.

It should be noted that water in and of itself is not defined as difficult terrain. There are special connatations with that term.

You can move 1/4 or 1/2 your speed with a successful swim check. If you have a swim speed you can move your full movement without a check.

There are special rules for combat underwater also - so it is not a default of combat when in difficult terrain.

I don't know but perhaps choppy water makes it a difficult terrain. If it merely raises the swim DC then it is not. Characters with a swim speed get a bonus on their swim check for such a purpose.