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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Numion" data-source="post: 1263507" data-attributes="member: 124">Well, I don't agree. How do you see clerics then? Basically it's never them that's doing the really useful things, in the way you seem to mean. It's the clerics god, just channeled through him. Outside power, just like magic items. It's all the same to me. Feats, skills, ability scores, magical powershad inherently, magical powers gained from god, magical powers gained from magic items. That all equals one D&D character to me.EDIT: At least thats how I feel, when I've used just the right spells, feats, magic items and skills and end up the last man standing in a big fight against the dragon and slaying it. I just feel a sense of achievement - not "If I hadn't had my bow, I'd be dead". Because it also works for everything about my character - haven't I had any of those abilities / items / feats I'd be dead. All important. That's why your example of jumping vs. boots of Big Jump is bad, IMO. When you have those boots, other things about the game are supposed to be challenging than jumping over ditches. At least I wouldn't want my 20th level char to get kicks from such trivial stuff. That enhances the main drive in playing D&D - advancing your character. If ditches are supposed to be challenging at all levels, and feel like accomplishments 1st thru 20th level something is wrong. Magic items are a part of the process, making the characters themselves more heroic, by allowing them to rise from menial problems to the bigger stuff. If that bigger stuff is not for you, feel free to limit the whole game to 9th or so level. Which has been thoroughly deemed a good thing in this thread <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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