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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 5232102" data-attributes="member: 71571">There exists no text to infer that 'staff' as a weapon group does not satisfy 'staff' as an implement requirement for those that have that.  In fact, if you were to speak of inferences, the existance of 'light blade' and 'heavy blade' as implements indicate to a reasonable degree that a weapon group can also be an implement type.  This, of course, ignores the existence of such implement types as 'dagger' and 'weapon you're proficient with' which are also valid implement types.Is there a single solitary piece of evidence to support your claim that a quarterstaff will not function as a staff implement despite being of the staff weapon group?  Do you have a single iota of game rule text that would hint that 'staff' in the implements allowed entry of a character class excludes the weapon group of the same name?Moreover, assuming said text exists, then implement types mentioned in class entries, if they cannot be refering to weapon groups even if called by name... where then is the list of implements a swordmage, sorcerer, or monk would use?But where does it say, infer, or otherwise hint that Gandalf couldn't pick up donatello's staff and beat people with it?That's the problem, you're making points involving rules text that simply does not exists, is not hinted at, and is not supported by precidents in the rules.Fact:  Weapon groups can be implement types.Fact:  Staff is a weapon group.Fact:  Quarterstaff is of the staff weapon group.Fact:  Zero text indicates that the staff weapon group and the staff implement type are not, in fact, the same concept.What IS an exception is that you can have specific implement enchantments for staffs... however quarterstaffs still qualify for those enchantments.-------------------------More importantly, if quarterstaves could not be used as staffs for implement powers, then you'd get around that by using a staff implement anyways.  The staff implement qualifies as a quarterstaff which means that all your feats that work with quarterstaffs still work with the staff implement.  And... the cost in gold is exactly the same.  So, in practice, you'll have two types of staff-users:  Those using staff implements to do both without any penalty... so no one would be using a straight up quarterstaff because it would offer no advantage whatsoever.So really, the 'quarterstaff is not a staff implement' is completely irrelevant even if it were true, because the staff implement IS a quarterstaff.</blockquote>

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