Does changing a creatures type require changing its CR?

[Three_Haligonians]

Hey folks!

Out there, somewhere, are people who think War Trolls should be giants. Or that Ropers should be abberations. I am one of those people, but that is neither here nor there, the point is that these are just two examples of such a train of thought - there are probably many more.

Say such a person decided to "fix that problem" and recalculated the creature according to the type they felt it should be - no adding or subtracting, no tweaking, just a change in type and all that goes with it (BAB, saves, skill points etc.), my question is: at what point do these changes affect the CR of the creature? Does changing from one type to another make a difference all the time? only in specific instances? or never at all?

Assume we are talking about a change to "fix" the creature, as in make its type better reflect the nature of the creature as opposed to flat out min/maxing: "By changing my kobolds into a plant creature I can keep the rogue from sneak attacking them and the wizard from dominating them!"

Thanks for your insight,

J from Three Haligonians

Edit: Hmm, this may have been a House Rule kinda thread... it is too early in the morning for me now to see the fine line.

 

[frankthedm]

One side of me says this
I think it is a good idea actually. Bane is way too cheap, fiddling with monster typing, while less desirable to me than putting bane back at the +2 enhancment cost, does get the job done of ensuring the PCs are challenged in their encounters.

The other side says this
If you want just leave the stats alone and just pencil the type change in to your book and mention the change briefly to the PCs who have the relevant knowledge’s saying war trolls are “bred to fight” and “swifter of wit and reflex” than most other giants. Thus it will still be an UberTroll, but the dwarf will still get his dodge bonus and such.

If a type gives a major bonus like construct, undead, dragon, fey or plant , it might alter CR, but giant, monstrous humanoid, magical beast and aberration are not that powerful. Also be watchful of taking a creature out of humanoid since that removes vulnerability to a LOT of things.

I am not sure i like having creature saves and BAB set by {Monstertype}. A beat down aberation is just as entitled to full bab as a magical beast.

 

[Nifft]

It really depends on the specifics.

MB Roper -> Aberroper: Not a big deal. Slight reduction of combat prowess, no specific uber-cool new abilities.

War Troll: These should just be banned.

Moving things into "tier 1" HD (Dragon, Outsider) could cause a rise in CR.
Moving things into "tier 3" HD (Animal, Construct, Ooze, Fey, Undead) could cause a drop in CR.

Look at the specific mechanical differences for each critter. Moving a high-HD Animal into Dragon HD would certainly give it an increase in CR. Moving a low-HD "tier 2" into a different "tier 2" is probably slight.

-- N

 

[Bront]

Nifft, you're saying that turning an animal into a construct will be of equal CR?

 

[Nifft]

Nifft, you're saying that turning an animal into a construct will be of equal CR?

It really depends on the specifics.

Look at the specific mechanical differences for each critter.

-- N

 

[Starglim]

If you are going to recalculate HP, BAB and base saves and give it all the appropriate traits and immunities according to type, then yes, that could well change the CR of the creature. You could avoid that by adjusting its Hit Dice to return it to the same CR.

A change of type by itself (that is, mostly adjusting the spells that apply to the creature) probably wouldn't change the CR except for humanoids, which it makes stronger in general.

 

[frankthedm]

A change of type by itself (that is, only adjusting the spells and effects that apply to the creature) probably wouldn't change the CR except for humanoids, which it makes stronger in general.

Plant, elemental, undead, and construct all give major immunities most notably turning off the rogue's sneak attack.

Dragon immunizes against sleep and paralasis effects so that is iffy.

 

[Starglim]

Plant, elemental, undead, and construct all give major immunities most notably turning off the rogue's sneak attack.

Dragon immunizes against sleep and paralasis effects so that is iffy.

My mistake. When I wrote "features" I should have written "traits", and I should not have used the loaded term "effects".

But, conversely, a change to undead makes the creature vulnerable to all sorts of nastiness, which is one of the reasons it is in the third tier of types.